dimenickel Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 off topic here... but heres an interesting article on boric acidNano-boric Acid Makes Motor Oil More Slippery by the way... why add iron oxide to the flux... ? seems to me, that would saturate the solution quicker and reduce its effect... unless your trying to lower the melting point ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I have a coffee can with damascus pieces that were cut off from blades that were never etched, some have been around for over a year, none are leaching white stuff. If your weld is leaching white stuff the problem is more than likely not in the flux but more likely in the smith . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwin Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I don't know, you may be right about the welds. I know very accomplished smiths who've had it happen, but it doesn't seem to always occur. Maybe they used a lot of it and it was caught in a crevise, maybe their weld did have an open space which held borax. I really would be curious to know if many people who use borax regularly have had it happen. It would seem that that there has to be somewhere hidden holding the material to leach out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerald Boggs Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) My experience has been that if I use Twenty Mule Borax and do nothing to neutralize* the iron that has been covered with the borax, then in time, it will leech a white power. Now this doesn't happen just around the joint, but everywhere the borax has been**. So if I weld two scrolls together, then about two inches each way from the weld will show this leeching. This leeching one of the reasons so many substitutes to borax have been come into being. *One method of solving this, is to wash the weld in water with a bit of baking soda. If you have ever used a blacking agent, then you've done this or something similar. **I don't understand the science, but I imagine that at forging temperature, the borax is absorbed into the surface of the metal. Later as it's exposed to air and moisture (probably moisture is a very important part of this) the borax leeches out. Edited February 18, 2009 by Gerald Boggs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 "*One method of solving this, is to wash the weld in water with a bit of baking soda. If you have ever used a blacking agent, then you've done this or something similar." Borax is on the alkaline side of the pH scale, so is baking soda. One alkali will not neutralize another, it takes an acid to neutralize an alkali. As far as the steel "absorbing" the borax, I think that is highly unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacksmith99 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 "*One method of solving this, is to wash the weld in water with a bit of baking soda. If you have ever used a blacking agent, then you've done this or something similar." Borax is on the alkaline side of the pH scale, so is baking soda. One alkali will not neutralize another, it takes an acid to neutralize an alkali. As far as the steel "absorbing" the borax, I think that is highly unlikely. Hi Guys, Borax is very hygroscopic. It loves water. The difference between 20 Mule Team and anhydrous borax is the anhydrous has had the water removed. If you leave it open to the atmosphere it will eventually absorb water until will foam up just 20 Mule Team. As far as borax goes, take your pick, one foams the other doesn't. The anhydrous is a little easier to deal with but it costs more too. When you put borax on hot metal, it converts to anhydrous. The water gets boiled out. That's what all the foaming is about. After you weld with borax, if you don't get it all off, or if it's stuck say down in the crevices of a basket handle the borax eventually absorbs water and it expands. That's when the white residue shows up, it's just hydrated borax. If you are making pattern welded billets then the borax is pretty much all gone by the time you are done with the billet. Warm water will eventually dissolve borax out of cracks and crannies. EZ-Weld and Crescent are the same formula, EZ-Weld contains metal filings. Many years ago the EZ-Weld company used an industrial slag in their flux. When Superior Flux bought EZ-Weld they also bought the slag that the original company had left. Eventually it ran out. Superior Flux worked a couple years before they found another source for a slag that would work in their flux. During that time many smiths quit using EZ-Weld because it really didn't work as well as the original. Some say it was an Anti-Weld Flux. Ha! Most people that use EZ-Weld agree that it's almost as good now as the original. One issue that I have with borax is that it's kind of greasy and slick when it's molten. The pieces really slip around a lot. I like Crescent for most things, when I have a weld that's hard to get I will use EZ-Weld. The filings really help keep the two parts from skidding around a lot while I'm getting the weld tacked. The filings also help a little with metal loss in the weld. As far as sparking, I really don't use that as an indicator. You're almost too hot at that point. Although some smiths like to wait for sparks. You can certainly weld without flux, you just have to get up to the melting point of the scale. At that point the scale becomes the flux. It melts and coats the material. I think my welds look better with flux. As I said, I really like Crescent. It cleans up really well. No white residue. Peter Ross uses borax and Crescent depending on what he is doing. Bob Patrick reaches for EZ-Weld most of the time although I've seen him weld with a lot of different fluxes. The boric acid in the borax would make the flux more aggressive. Most chemical reactions get more active as you heat them up. The boric acid might help with getting the borax to dissolve in water after the welding is done. Some guys swear by borax and metal filings from their bandsaws. Use what works for you, and ignore anyone who says it's wrong. REgards, M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBrann Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 (edited) I like the anti borax flux... with iron filings...I read the msds or formula somewhere.. its boric acid, slag/firescale iron filings and silica..if memory serves.... Theres a place in hartford CT that sell boric acid, in 25 lb or more bags as well as a bunch of other products.... if anyone is interested.... Edited April 1, 2009 by CBrann I am a dummy and didn't know there was 4 pages to read Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 can i use straight borax as a flux for forge welding? i want to try forge welding damascus and would like to make my own flux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnptc Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 yes you can buy anhydrous borax ...borax with the water removed or regular borax with regular borax you can use as is, but it bubbles alot due to the water content or make it into anhydrous borax , melt it at about 1700f and let it harden in a sheet and grind it up into powder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 thank you that is very good to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 I've always used straight 20 muleteam for my pattern welding. If things are a bit obdurate I add in some boric acid. I've managed to avoid the fluorspar so far! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 That's borax the laundry additive NOT BoraxO the hand soap. It works fine. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 that is what i was looking for actuallyfrosty i did not know it was a hand soap. how much should i get for a weekend warrior smith? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnptc Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 (edited) that is what i was looking for actuallyfrosty i did not know it was a hand soap. how much should i get for a weekend warrior smith? IN THE MARKET IN THE GREEN BOX 20 mule team borax ....they also make a laundry soap but you want the straight borax....buy a box its not expensive:) not boraxo the hand nor the laundry soap made by borax. the straight borax is sold as a cleaning booster or additive Edited April 4, 2009 by johnptc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 ok thank you al0l Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 all I ever use is 20 mule team borax right out of the box. works just fine for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triw Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 I use 20 mule team borax and to make it easier to use I took an old metal salt shaker (like the ones used in resturant kitchens) made the holes a little bigger and made a long metal handle for it. Now I bring the billet out of the forge and I can sprinkle the flux on a lot easier. Just an idea for you guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 thank you all. i think i may make a damascus steel kitchen knife or bowie. can i get a wood fire hot enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnr Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Have you made a weld yet with your setup? That should tell you if you can get enough heat. Finnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damascus Mike Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Where can i buy some forge welding flux and what exactly is it used for besides forge welding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnr Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Borax. 20 Mule Team Borax. In the laundry Isle of a grocery. You use it to wash clothes as well. Finnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnptc Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 killing cockroaches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnr Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Go here, download a bunch of books and read. Internet Archive Search: forge work Finnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 (edited) try reading through the forum posts. here are some threads about fluxhttp://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f21/borax-flux-10872/http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f21/borax-boric-acid-sand-9868/ Edited April 5, 2009 by steve sells addition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new guy Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 good point guess il have to weld when i dry out my forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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