Mikey98118

You didn't offend me. I just suffer increasing bouts of irony from so much time watching the parade pass. And yes, the book not being very available frustrates me too. In the meantime, information must be passed forward. So, as to your questions: You asked " When you say to aim the flame approx 1/3 of the way in from the kiln shelf edge, I would assume that you mean on the same side of the forge as the burners are located on based on..." Yes, the same side. This slows down the flame, without stopping its swirling path within the forge, and is less likely to allow it to impinge on the work, which is usually placed in the center of the forge floor. You stated "However, every picture I see shows a burner mounted top dead center aimed at the work, or they are mounted slightly off center pointed directly across the forge." Positioning the burner straight down from TDC will result in the flame splitting into two swirls of left and right hand spirals. A friend of mine uses this position in his forge with success. But his burner is turned down very low, so that his flame is short and slow; otherwise his stock would suffer from it. He can get away with the slow heating this engenders, because he only heat 1/4" square bar to red heat. If he used larger stock and needed to work faster amd/or hotter, the straight down flame would have to be turned up, and would impinge on the stock, causing a lot of trouble. So, why are so many burners positioned at TDC? That's the way most of the first gas forges came out; since the manufacturers don't like to change anything, they still are. If automobile manufacturers played the game that way, road apples would be a big problem on today's highways. Not that this is the only reason for TDC aiming; in the past, it made sense in some brick forges, and small box forges. With the new choices in ceramic materials, that may change. Mounting a burner slightly off center, and pointed directly across the forge, would cause the flame to impinge on the weaker wall structure sooner in its path, rather than later. The whole point of your forge's floor is to provide a tougher area for the stock to rest on; one that is resistant, to impacts, flux, and flame impingement. You want the flame to impinge as long as possible on the floor, to save where and tear on the forge walls. Essentially, your burner and forge are a pile of decisions that are made wisely--or not. If you don't know the reason why someone is doing something different in a design, find out, before copying it. People are usually worried about their forge not getting hot enough, but that can always be fixed; there are a hundred ways to do it. What they should be wary of, is having to look at a forge full of wrong choices, every time they go to use it; that is what gets most forges replaced

An orange interior, without using a heat reflective coating in the forge, is pretty good.

Make sure the parts are lined up properly before making the first tack. Leave sufficient height in the saddle; at least equal to the width of the reducer opening. Tacks are temporary, but finish welds aren't, so double check before doing them.

There is always a perfectly logical reason not to follow sound advice. During all the years that book was in circulation, there were people who just couldn't make up their minds whether to cough up a twenty, or take a chance on a pirate site. Now the book is out of circulation, and people have to pay hundreds, or down load from a pirate site. When those few copies are gone, things will get even weirder. I spent two years of my life learning what I needed to know, and then two more years writing that book, so that some people could be very happy with what they found in it. There just isn't time or strength enough, for me to worry about all of the others anymore.

Circumstances alters cases. I have seen sales jerks push stuff off on the unsuspecting, which they called "high alumina," which couldn't qualify for the term in any reasonable universe; so, start with, "do you trust the seller?" I buy from Seattle Pottery Supply, and have never had a problem. High alumina kiln shelves are tough and reasonably heat reflective; they also stop flux. But, you can do well enough for less trouble with Kast-O-lite 30, and probably for less money in a small enough forge. The main reason I like the shelves in tunnel forges, is that they can be conveniently trapped in the forge shell. But, what if you're including a forge door on one end? That kind of ruins your ability to trap easily the shelve. Finally, the newest insulating firebrick can now be given a heavy coating of zirconium silicate, and up your whole game. You gots to read some before you jumps...

In the five gallon propane forge, I think I used 2" from TDC, along with aiming the burner vary carefully, but 3" should work out okay. However, you only want to aim the flame about one-third of the way in from the kiln shelf edge. You want avoid aiming the burner at your work pieces. Even though there will be no VISIBLE flame impingement from a properly tuned burner, there can still be super heated gas molecules, which can chemically interact with the metal; why take the chance of going there? Okay; you could do much worse than to use that old book. Everything in the text is straight forward. There is zero padding, obfuscation, and B.S in it. BUT, the information is also dated; my designs were the last word, then. But a lot more words have been added my a lot of clever people, since. You need to read Burners 101, and Forges 101 threads if you want know all those changes; should you want all the edge you can get. If you just want rock-on equipment, it will deliver. Getting the most out of Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, & Kilns The first thing you won't find mentioned in the book, is that a few years after it came out there was a quiet revolution in rotary hand tools (electric die grinders to our generation), and their accessories, which changed from over priced and underfed, to powerful and cheap. So, for get using a small angle grinder. The next thing is Larry Zoeller's change over to 1/8" schedule 80 pipe nipples for the gas tubes; this makes a more powerful gas accelerator, which can be threaded directly into, for the MIG tip. These advantages are well worth having to special order the part, rather than picking the schedule 40 version at your locale hardware store. After thousands of burners were built around the world, my six un-puckered, and I started making the burners with only three air openings, no matter what their sizes; this configuration is more powerful than five or six openings, which I used as an added safety feature, back then. Finally, I would recommend using two 1/2" burners (instead of the single 3/4") with a movable internal baffle wall in any five gallon propane cylinder forge, it will allow you to heat with half the fuel for most of your work.You need well contained heat in your forge; not blasting into your shop. I shouldn't need to say that the smaller non-returnable Freon or helium cylinders make a better size first forge, but it's no big deal. It can always be a second forge. I think most smiths who even heed this advice, simply end up building the five gallon size later on. So, most people will just reverse the cycle, and arrive to the same end point

Well, okay then; I feel better now. Are to going to use two rings of aiming screws, too?

Easy burner ports Every since that evil heartless Larry Zoeller (villain, fiend, and cad) started using conduit locking rings to hold short pipe nipples in place on forge shells, I have been unable to convince most people to do things the hard way--er...I mean the right way-- and go through the minor trouble to: (1) Grind each burner opening in the shell into an oval shape, so that each burner port (pipe nipple) could be positioned at the proper angle for the burner flame to impinge at just the right spot on the forge floor. (2) Mark and cut one end of each burner port (still a pipe nipple) at just the right angle to match the forge shell's oval openings, cut them into castellated shapes; bend the end tabs at right angles, and drill them, so that pop rivets could affix them to the forge shell. (3) Drill and thread two sets of holes for thumb screws (not those low brow bolts) to keep the burners trapped at their desired angles. All this, just to make your work easier. Poor old Frankenburner is so disappointed (double hiss)! Therefore, I am not about to mention that a hole drilled off center through a pipe cap could bring your easy way up to par with the RIGHT WAY. No, no; in a just world, it is better that all you lazy people just suffer...besides, it would allow you to aim just as well with only one set of aiming screws, and that would just be wrong.

Fumed silica is just one more form of glass. Once it is mixed in water, becoming colloidal silica, there can be shelf life issues, but my bottle of silica rigidizer (colloidal silica and blue dye) has lasted for years, without settling out. The shelf life problems that have been reported, have occurred due to super concentrated containers of colloidal silica being stored too long; these become concentrated bases, causing chemical reactions. Once mixed with water, do not allow the solution to freeze, or it will settle out.

Frosty is right. Steel mailbox forges have been around for a long time; they are probably the most common way to make a "D" shaped forge. Such forges are the easiest way to end up with a wide flat floor surface, in a small space.

I didn't talk about this much for a long time; knowing that most guys would completely blow the 12:1 taper, by working way too hard with the hammer blows. But the results that guys are getting these days--by doing just that--has eased my second thoughts on the matter. Mini-forges We advise would-be knife makers to look into non-refillable Freon and helium cylinders for making forge shells all the time; these forges are the same size as as Ron Reil's mini-forge (listed on his burner pages; there appears a blow by blow account of how to turn one of those cylinders into a typical knife maker's forge. Duh; talk about missing the obvious! Like they're going to make the connection

I thought it was a little on the thick side. At minimum you don't need a ring to create a step in your flame nozzle. Just turn a straight cylinder about 2" long. Drill and tap three holes for three equally spaced stainless steel screws, set back about 1/2" away from one of its ends. I prefer socket set screws. What kind of screw you choose is a matter of personal preference; that they are stainless steel is necessary. It is also necessary to sand the end of each screw into a flat face. If the screws leave scratches on the mixing tube, you will have a sorry mess in short order. Once, the three holes are threaded, you must sand or file their inner surfaces, because stainless steel is bad about deforming during threading. Once the nozzle will run smoothly back and forth over the mixing tube again, chase the threads, because file work on the cylinder's inside face, is likely to deform the thread. Yes, you've guessed it; you now need to check, for additional deformation inside the cylinder wall. Work back and forth, until the screws run smoothly in their holes, and the flame nozzle runs smoothly back and forth on the mixing tube. Spend the time to do this work just right. Otherwise any of the part surfaces can gall, and then life gets real ugly. Do all of these tasks to the best of your ability, and you can miss out on a very galling experience

The only tool you need to do flares with is a smaller pipe or round bar. Turn the larger pipe over the end of a smaller pipe, while you hammer on its hot surface.

Well put, Tim.

I do admire the braided stainless steel covered fuel hose, now that they don't want your first born for one of them.

No; we changed apparent positions from my usual stand of " do everything just so", to your usual position of "good enough is good enough." While that gave me a grin, it wasn't really what was going on.

Of course ribbon burners tend to give a more even temperature range in the forge. Whether that is desirable, or hot spots are, is up to the user.

Charles R. Stevens wrote the following on another thread: "As you already have tools and skills using them I would advocate building a forge. Not only is the cost in your favor, so is future maintenance. Mike and Jerry have a wealth of knowledge on gas forge and burner construction and are happy to share. Wayne has a nice side gig sourcing non industrial amounts of refractory materials. Guys with "gassers" find out fast that one size dose not fit all, and wile 90% of smiths will do 90% of their work in a 8" deep forge. But then their are the other 10% who either need a bigger forge all the time, or the 100% who need a bigger forge some times. Having the confidence to build allows you the opportunity to own 2 or 3 forges for the same money. You may have a soul can forge for small work, a 10x8" for general work and a 10x12 for longer twists, scrolls and knife heat treating. This will really help with fuel efficiency." This advice is too well put, and too valuable, not to save for more than the usual month. Drain holes These days, I recommend drilling a small hole (1/8") in the bottom of the forge shell. The point is to provide a sufficient exit for steam, water vapor, and liquid water, no matter how well sealed the hot face surfaces of the forge ends up. From the beginning I designed all my equipment to be built without need of a welding machine, or anything more than hand tools. Nevertheless, hot water could be seen running out of some forges, after long periods without use. Because wire feed welders are being used in ever more home shops, forge shells are also becoming more water and steam tight, so the time has become ripe for water drain holes What do you want to build first, when constructing your forge? Whatever part of it that can also be used as a tool; the burner, of course! You will find lots of forge parts that are made of steel. Heat them up, and GENTLY hammer them into shape, and you can reduce your work load, during construction.

From the beginning I designed all my equipment to be built without need of a welding machine, or anything more than hand tools. Nevertheless, hot water could be seen running out of some forges, after long periods without use. Because wire feed welders are being used in ever more home shops, forge shells are also becoming more water and steam tight, so the time has become ripe for water drain holes

Me too, Frosty. On the other hand, a guy has to take into account his own preferences in case of emergency. The main reason I don't place the shut off valve next to the burner, is that it is where I like to place a needle valve. A regulator is needed for safety, but I like to do the fine tuning on a burner with a needle valve; also just a matter of preference.

You're right; that was quite a score. And you are even more right that bargains on ceramic supplies are out there; just waiting to be stumbled across.

Okay, the "problem" doesn't actually exist. In the video, he was using the choke to change the hardness of the flame; this is used to fine tune flames from oxidizing, through neutral, to reducing. You will seldom use your choke for this, as changing the incoming gas pressure is what is used to change flame AMOUNTS. The other thing air chokes are used for, is to close the burner off, to prevent chimney effects, after forge shutdown. Tuning any burner is like riding a bicycle; it only seems complicated until you do it once; afterward your body does what is needed, without even consulting your mind

Frosty, Well, we seem to have traded places on this issue. However, I am all for careful preparation at every stage of a build. So, from know on I will recommend buttering before rigidizing. But this brings up a separate issue. These days, I recommend drilling a small hole (1/8") in the bottom of the forge shell. The point is to provide a sufficient exit for steam, water vapor, and liquid water, no matter how well sealed the hot face surfaces of the forge ends up.

Generally, a few thousandths of an inch oversized mixing tubes are better than undersized. But a few thousandths of an inch undersized is no big deal. The difference between sand blasted and polished surfaces fall into the "no big deal" classification, too But, beveling the inside ridge will make a positive difference. What is the thickness of the mixing tube wall. I can't give you any help with building the flame nozzle without knowing that. inches or millimeters; it doesn't matter which.

Move the burner nozzles back inside of the Kaowool. Rigidize the insulation with fumed silica (from eBay) in water; a cheap way to make colloidal silica rigidizer. Get rid of those hard fire bricks, and add a Kaowool pillow and/or Morgan's K26 insulating fire bricks (from eBay), to raise the floor level back up to where it is now. Then add a flame face made of Kast-O-lite 30 LI castable refractory, from Wayne Coe, over the pillow and/or K26 bricks. Use those hard bricks, K26 brick with a zirconium silica flame coating, or a round high alumina kiln shelf with a small centrol opening--to pass stock through for heating--as an adjustable external baffle wall, to allow exhaust gas to exit, while bounciing IR radiation back into the forge interior. Then we can have a better look at a properly completed forge, and judge what your burner is doing under ideal conditions BTW, I like what you have done with the steel work on you forge. That should read "... a zirconium silicate flame coating, or a round high alumina kiln shelf with a small center opening..."