Mikey98118

A word of caution about this burner; it shows a very good flame for very little money, BUT this design is cropping up all over the net, like mushrooms, because it is a simple design to build for sale. Do not expect this flame to come out of all of them, because it does not Above is a very similar burner with a weak flam. Below is a nearly identical burner with a great flame Look at each burner up close to find the reason for the difference; it's in their flame nozzles,.

Larry Zoeller's "Z" burner is dependable, hot running, and low priced; it's been around for years, and you can see it with a flame photo. I do not recomend buying any burner without seeing its flame. I have seen burners that can't even make neutral flames described by their sellers in glowing terms; no, I don't think they're crooks; just deluded (well, I think at least one of them is a crook!) \http://zoellerforge.com/forgeparts.html

Superb flames. Actually, there is way more heat than you will need once the forge ends are installed. You will end up running your burners with about one-third of that pressure, most of the time. Please try moving the angle of your burners closer to vertical before committing to a position. Your flames should impinge on the right-hand side of your floor.

You have now achieved a hard neutral flame, with what sane people would consider an acceptable amount of secondary flame; I don't. It is now time for you to decide what path to take. I'm willing to go on coaching you all the way to a perfect flame, however long that takes. Or you can get on with building your forge...with or without my help, as you please. The next step toward a perfect flame will be to enlarge your mixing tube about .020", and try another flame photo.

Yes, I know; it is hard for me to accept air holes, but"if it's dumb, but works, it ain't dumb." Larry Z told me that he has been playing around with those radically tapered flame nozzles himself. I ordered one of them so that I can figure out where they belong in the theme of things. Watching Blacksmith450's burners, it seems plain to me that there is more to be learned (even though he has chosen stepped flame nozzles in the end). I don't think their low prices will continue very much longer

Glenn, Please delete my nickname from this thread; you could leave that area blank, or replace it with something like IFI et al. It is time for the innovative forge designers, to feel encouraged to post them here; they need to feel this is their thread, because it is

Glenn, Please delete my nickname from this thread; you could leave that area blank, or replace it with something like IFI et al. It is time for the inventors of new burners to feel encouraged to post them here; also the fans of other burners, old and new

BTW, that cowling presents an entirely new direction in forge construction; congratulations.

Thank you for posting this on this thread, Glenn. It is a very important example of how far people can go with their own designs.

Thank you for doing that, Glenn.

Jay Hayes; forgotten genius of forge design Well, not really forgotten, but certainly obscure. Jay is a heating engineer and one of the earliest of movers and shapers in homemade gas forges. His oval forges have been around for decades; he is also an early innovator of burners, brick, and "D" forges. I consistently consulted him while righting the section on propane hoses in my book; he would have become famous if he had leaned into keeping up a modern website (it remains unfinished after all these years). Unfortunately, you must do a Google search, to find out more about his work, but it is well worthwhile: https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&source=hp&q=jay+hayes+forge&oq=Jay+Hayes+for&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0l2j0i22i30k1.6532.28773.0.33616.14.13.0.0.0.0.227.1311.9j3j1.13.0.dummy_maps_web_fallback...0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.13.1304.0..46j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i20i264k1j0i20i264i46k1j46i20i264k1j0i46k1.0.Wz_P5FOSjnU

Here is a steady source of minor amounts of ceramic blanket and board at sane prices http://www.mcgillswarehouse.com/fiber-board-paper-blanket

You bring up a good point Wayne. I never considered the OBVIOUS fact that your design is perfect for use as a clamshell forge.

Sooner or later, this thread is going to join the others in the old files section. When it does, I hope you will post it in the Burners 101 thread, so it doesn;t get forgotten; that would be a shame.

Everyone who succeeds in making a new high-end burner design tends to become narrow-minded about what is right or wrong about burner construction; this is an inevitable product of our journeys through the minefield of errors on the way to success. Our viewpoints only harden further, as we watch others deviate from our designs, and make a mess. No decent person enjoys the failure of others, any more than their own. Unfortunately, the same narrow-mindedness that protects from failure becomes a roadblock to further progress. Nearly two decades back, I saw a perfect single wavefront (AKA flame envelope) coming out of an air/fuel burner nozzle, and then wondered why it hadn't been achieved long before. After all, a simple adjustment of the oxygen flow on a torch will make such a flame. The answer is that such a flame has no value with an oxy-fuel torch, as it is used in industry. Therefore, the more knowledgeable us "experts" were the more hardened our minds were against it. For us, a soft neutral flame was the ultimate flame; and when you are gas welding steel, braze welding brass, or flame bending glass, this is true. So an old truth blinded us since the area of the Civil War, to a different truth, which is that in heating equipment secondary flames waist money; the bigger the secondary flame the bigger the waist. Rules of thumb make handy guides, right up until they don't; treating them like axioms is a trap, but all too often, that's what we do If you need dependable results, follow the rules. If you want discovery, then "D**n the torpedos! Full speed ahead."

If you use lots of baby powder, it's only necessary to clean the underwear before darning their holes (just like sots); well...unless you have a gas mask I think a thin coating of refractory will make K26 bricks last longest.

I don't know anything about his clamshell forge. But if I remember correctly he is an actual heating engineer and one of the earliest of the movers and shapers in gas blacksmithing forges. His oval forges have been around for decades. I consistently consulted him while righting the section on propane hoses in my book. I believe he would have become famous if he had leaned into keeping up a modern website. There would never have been a niche in the marketplace for Chile Forge to fill.

81pistolsfiring and Frosty Bentonite clay as a refractory or kiln wash is a worthwhile subject to investigate. As to cracking in thermally resistant zirconia silicate tile; it should be more easily avoided in the first place, and repairable if it happens. Consider how small shrinkage cracks are as compared to to the original area of the tile; doesn't that simply invite using the refractory as glue for self repair? genesaika I did say that a box forge should be taller than it is wide to allow the fire to properly combust and avoid impinging on the material being heated. Yes, you could make the burner ports taller, but it is not recommended. You could also change out your burners for a ribbon burner, to make the flames much shorter. I intended the original comment as a cautioning statement; as the easiest repair is the one you can avoid. But for people who already have forges with horizontal dimensions too large to be adequately heated by burners with short enough flames. The easiest answer is to change out its burners for smaller ones with shorter flames. By adding more ports, instead of lengthening them, four smaller burners can also do the heating of two larger burners. Note: If you start with two burners positioned fore and aft, the third and fourth burners should be position left and right. But, if you start with two burners positioned left and right, try to position the third and fourth burners left and right too. genesaika Your advice to builders to generally loosen up when building their first forge is best followed before construction; it is s;dp likely to be even more needed after construction.

GOOD!!! You may only consider it as an economical way to toughen ceramic blanket insulation within a forge, but when one of the IFI guys posted a photo of a section ceramic blanket being used as an external exhaust cowling, he unknowingly started a new direction in forge construction; multiplying the usefulness of your technique. I would still like you to post it on this thread; otherwise, you're likely to get asked to discuss it over and over in the coming months

Fire cement is low-priced and readily available in small cans; it is not normally used in place of regular refractory hot faces because it has it is not made to be used in thick layers and will crack and spall if used for a hot-face. Tim Gunn seems to have solved that problem, by watering down the cement so that it can deeply penetrate ceramic wool blanket; so the cement helps strengthen the blanket, and vice-versa. Fire cement comes in more than one temperature rating; use the highest one available. One of the three kinds of commercial rigidizers works the same way, so there is plenty of precedent for this process. I would recommend spritzing colloidal silica rigidizer (fumed silica in water) on the blanket and firing it first, to strengthen the blanket, and then applying the watered down cement to seal and toughen the blanket further.

Fire cement is low-priced and readily available in small cans; it is not normally used in place of regular refractory hot faces because it has it is not made to be used in thick layers and will crack and spall if used for a hot-face. Tim Gunn seems to have solved that problem, by watering down the cement so that it can deeply penetrate ceramic wool blanket; so the cement helps strengthen the blanket, and vice-versa. Fire cement comes ins more than one temperature ratings; use the highest one available. One of the three kinds of commercial rigidizers works the same way, so there is plenty of precedent for this process. I would recommend spritzing colloidal silica (fumed silica in water) on the blanket and firing it first, to strengthen the blanket, and then applying the watered down cement to seal and toughen the blanket.

Frosty, Ditto for me; last year I called something a "junk" burner, even though it was making a perfect flame. I was angry that something that crude should make such a flame. Afterward, my conscience beat me up over it. Since then, I only judge a burner by its flame, and that is fortunate because more such flames are exiting burner designs that I don't approve of. "If it's dumb, but it works, it ain't dumb"

The bricks are glowing high orange; bordering on yellow, with the reflection of a yellow interior on the surfaces that face the fire. Furthermore, the work is nearly white-hot. There is no doubt that your forge is more than hot enough. However your exhaust gases are blue, so be sure to use powered ventilation in your shop. I wouldn]t mind seeing your forge posted in the Forges 101 thread as a good example of a brick forge; and also a good example of a forced air forge.

The new exhaust opening puts the front burner in a much better position. I like the ceramic blanket cowling; you need to protect it with colloidal silica rigidizer, and then seal coat it afterward. Rigidizing and seal coating will help preserve this structure and guard your health.

Your burners are running with reducing flames (fuel rich), but not badly so; if you reduce the gas jet's orifice size a little, that should clear up. Your main problem is that one of your burners is way too close to the exhaust exit, and that the exit is wide open. You are literally dumping most of that burners heat straight out the opening.