Entry Level Blacksmith Accreditation

[Dale M.]

I know there was some discussion on site about who endows the title of master blacksmith in US.... BUT this query is far below that...

 

Does anyone have any listing or references of entry level (rank apprentice)  list of things one must make to receive initial accreditation.... I know each group in many different area have their own standards  of what one must accomplish, and I am looking to compare what my group has compared to others...

 

MY group as a old binder full of lists and sketches and it seem to be the possession of out expert blacksmith....I am hoping to update his binder into electronic version by scanning in his documentation and sketches, but would also like to see what other groups have or require to achieve at least first level acceptance...

 

So far most GOOGLE searches have turned up zilch... But maybe I am using the wrong terminology in search strings...

 

Dale

[swedefiddle]

California Blacksmith Association has a listing.

 

Neil

[Chinobi]

yea CBA has certified a course list for levels 1 2 and 3 (3 being Journeyman IIRC), im taking level 1 right now.  projects include things like hot cut chisels, butcher tools, basic smithing mechanics and techniques, simple forge welding, punches and drifts, a monkey tool, and culminating in a farm gate hook.  level 2 is scrolls, tools to make scrolls, and i think a hardie header plate.

 

you might be able to find the info on the CBA website.

 

being up by yosemite you should be able to link up with CBA events and members pretty readily if you are not already.

[Dale M.]

California Blacksmith Association has a listing.

 

Neil

 

I found this but it seems woefully  inadequate for level 1 certification... Seems more like a outline of what a level one certification should contain or a guide to what a level 1 certification (curriculum) should be developed around  ......

 

http://www.calsmith.org/resources/education/level-i/

 

Current "book" for our group has 18 different steps and is a lot more complex in making items for level 1 than the what is found in CBA content for Level 1...

 

Dale

[Dale M.]

yea CBA has certified a course list for levels 1 2 and 3 (3 being Journeyman IIRC), im taking level 1 right now.  projects include things like hot cut chisels, butcher tools, basic smithing mechanics and techniques, simple forge welding, punches and drifts, a monkey tool, and culminating in a farm gate hook.  level 2 is scrolls, tools to make scrolls, and i think a hardie header plate.

 

you might be able to find the info on the CBA website.

 

being up by yosemite you should be able to link up with CBA events and members pretty readily if you are not already.

 

Yes we have local group the meets every 2nd Saturday of the month.... I do participate in this group...This is the group I want to update the certification book for, to a electronic version....

Dale

[John McPherson]

"update the certification book to an electronic version..."

 

That would be GREAT. We need a national standard teacher and student outline with a course of projects, with pictures and sketches with circles and arrows, etc. I had signed up to take Mark Aspery's course here last fall, but his accident cancelled it. Had I known, I would have taken, rather that watched the class in Rapid City.

 

ABANA has a (rather wordy) hand forging skills guide, but what it lacks is projects. The CBA skills website is fragmented and incomplete, and the newsletters are password protected "members-only."

 

A decade or more ago, ABANA had handouts about what to bring to and how to put on a public demo, the skills expected of a Journeyman, etc. All that disappeared.

[Dale M.]

"update the certification book to an electronic version..."

 

That would be GREAT. We need a national standard teacher and student outline with a course of projects, with pictures and sketches with circles and arrows, etc. I had signed up to take Mark Aspery's course here last fall, but his accident cancelled it. Had I known, I would have taken, rather that watched the class in Rapid City.

 

ABANA has a (rather wordy) hand forging skills guide, but what it lacks is projects. The CBA skills website is fragmented and incomplete, and the newsletters are password protected "members-only."

 

A decade or more ago, ABANA had handouts about what to bring to and how to put on a public demo, the skills expected of a Journeyman, etc. All that disappeared.

 

At least one person gets "it".......

 

Dale

[David Einhorn]

Years ago a woman called up to find out if the non-profit Karate group, that I was helping in an administrative role, provided certification of students.  I responded that a certification would not do much for her son if he were in the position where he needed to defend himself.

 

If I had saved all the "certificates" that I received from various seminars, continuing education, non-credit courses, etc. I would have been able to wall paper the walls of my bedroom.   I have never been asked for a certificate when assauted while working in Baltimore, and no one has ever asked me for a blacksmithing certificate. 

 

Sorry, but I am one of those people that don't "get it". 

[John McPherson]

David, this will be my third summer teaching the intro Blacksmith class at my community college. I have taught the Rifle Shooting, Shotgun Shooting, and Metalwork MB to hundreds of Boy Scouts at summer camps, and I teach AWS SENSE Welding classes full time.

 

I have a wall full of degrees and certificates, that and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. 

 

It's not about the certificate for the trainer or the trainee, its about the standardization of training skills. 

[Fe-Wood]

Dale and all,

I'm part of the CBA education team (education-north@calsmith.org). We have talked about these very topics at length. There was a proposal to build a national curriculum through ABANA based on various projects and input from the various groups. It is a HUGE task. I don't know what is going on with it at this point. Seems to have died on the vine so to speak.

 

I get the desire to have a certification process. For some its more about being accredited by ones piers than having a piece of paper to brandish upon request. It gives a sense of confidence.  

 

The CBA level 1, 2 and 3 certificates are based on the end projects of the gate latch, grill/scrolls project with the journey level being reach by completing the level 3 grill. These projects are the final exam, if you will. How the knowledge and skill required to make them is acquired, thats really up to the maker. Blacksmiths in general don't follow rules. The skills acquired over the years is based on the projects chosen rather than a set standard approach. At least that is how it is now.

 

When I was an apprentice woodworker, one of the very first things we had to learn was how to take 2 hand planes and a tune them up. We learned how to sharpen them, adjust them and then cut a perfect shaving. Then, as the test, we had to take a rough cut piece of pine and size it to dimension on all 6 faces with only the use of the 2 planes. The piece had to be perfectly flat, parallel, square and to a specified size. Otherwise, you had to do it again.

 

For you Dale and any others interested, It would be helpful to work with one of the many CBA instructors available. We are here to help our members with direction and suggest when someone is ready to move to taking the test of making the level 1, 2 or 3 projects. If you PM me, I will see what I can do to help you find someone in your area. I know several smiths who work in Yosemite in the summer months...

 

Hope this helps-

[Frosty]

Part of this issue lays in part, the USA has no industrial blacksmithing on more than a few highly specialized professions. Largely if not mostly closed die CNC forges. Hand forging is as far as I know not an industrial occupation so what's the point of official certifications?

 

ABANA?

 

My opinion about ABANA is tinged by experience, if I EVER see something like a 3 tier curriculum from ABANA I'll be surprised as all get out. (vernacular deleted)

 

I don't know what happened to ABANA but it seems they've become something to impress themselves about how... Artistic they are? I don't know but . . . I just don't know. This is as close to badmouthing ABANA as I've allowed myself to be publicly but I don't ever ask myself, What would ABANA do/say. It's like they forgot what they were supposed to be.

 

What I ended up doing is writing a curriculum for the kids I was taking on. 1st. tier or basic, course. Learn all the basic skills of blacksmithing, fire managment, forging functions, bending, piercing, cutting, punching, drifting, tool steel includes, heat management during forging, heat treating, dressing, finishing and use. All joinery including welding. Welding in my shop is a first day exercise, it isn't hard and it's a great confidence builder, it has such a tough reputation that doing it right off sets the mood for future challenges. Upsetting is the worst so I save it for later.

 

2nd. tier or intermediate, involves putting techniques together consistently. For instance I hand them a leaf coat hook similar to the one they made in basic and their job is to make four just like it, looks, size, weight and finish. Not identical but alike enough they'd look RIGHT on a finished board on the wall by a upscale front door. Sets of built up items, say four fire tool sets with stands. mailbox stands are favorites, it goes on. They get to make themselves a chisel set or punch set, or.. . I allow leeway in what they make so long as they can maintain consistency in product form, quality, finish, etc.

 

Advanced? got me, I've never taken let alone passed an advanced course. Most of my kids are up to learning whatever they need, I've given them the tools they need, it's up to them to use them.

 

Master? Oh yeah I'm a MASTER, I own my shop, you betcha I'm MASTER. Of my shop that is. This is as it's been for millenia in this and many crafts, say sailing, caravan shipping, armies, navys, etc. The owner's the master. Am I a master craftsman? Depends on what craft we're talking about. I used to be awfully darned good at the anvil and that's coming back. Heavy equipment, darned close if not there exploration driller, you betcha.

 

I personally think a standardized curriculum is far more use to the craft as it stands in this country now than certificates of completion or diplomas. someone forking out a fee to learn should know what they're getting. You can't actually teach people, the best you can do is present information in a safe, useful manner, it's up to them to learn.

 

Those are just my thoughts, I'm open for suggestions and hope we can come to something useful for the craft.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Dale M.]

I looked at the gate hook as a final test and though what a joke....I can cold from that in about 10 minutes in a vice and a few basic tools..... It a nothing piece and does not need any skill to complete....

 

MY group as I mentioned earlier has a book with about 18 different steps, and each one teaches a process....  It's not the completing of a gate hook at the end of the training..... Its about what processes one needs to learn about tool making (punches and tongs) and techniques to shape metals.... The many and varied projects or steps  to get to this is the  knowledge base  I am searching for and wish to see.... Many books have may projects and sketches and I guess I could proceed on my own and be self taught, but  it may take some time to convince my peers... IF I can record or validate I have actually learned these processes, hence a curriculum and a check off list then it sort of proves my accomplishments....

 

All I am really asking is if there are any groups out there has has a  curriculum  for achieving a level if it is in electronic format if I can have a copy.... IT would be nice if there was a overall  course of study so to speak sponsored by ABANA or some other organization so the was some sort of consistency in what what we need to learn or try to teach others....

 

This should be so elemental I can not believe there is not anything out there ...

 

Dale

[David Einhorn]

.....It's not about the certificate for the trainer or the trainee, its about the standardization of training skills. 

 

Sorry, I still don't see the need. 

[Dale M.]

Sorry, I still don't see the need. 

 

What may be unimportant to you  is not really of interest to the rest of us, IF you don't have anything positive, why bother wasting your time with negative comments... If you are happy in your little world stay there, please don't bother the rest of us trying to expand our worlds....

 

Dale

[Gor]

Sorry, I still don't see the need. 

Hmm. Would you go see a doctor that doesn't have his medical license? Take your car to a mechanic that doesn't have his certification? Most people wouldn't, unless they have first hand knowledge that the individual in question is at least somewhat skilled. I think that's the point here. I know that we, as blacksmiths, aren't as important to our society as a doctor or mechanic, but it's still nice to know that someone you may be considering doing business with has acquired at least a basic set of skills in their field. 

Besides, with a basic curriculum that's widely available, it would be much easier for anyone interested to get into our hobby. And that's always a good thing.

[Wroughton]

Any literature from the last time there was a standard in the U.S.? I bet someone here has a copy in his back pocket. 

 

Would it be too easy to start there?

 

Tossing that out for archaic tendencies could we borrow something from our European brothers that's more current?

 

Not that I'm doing anything about it  :rolleyes: , but that seems like a fairly easy fish to fry....err plagiarize. 

[Frank Turley]

I've given out lots of certificates, and some are kept and some are framed and hung. It has more to do with muddling through and being proud than flashing it as an addendum to one's résumé.

 

One of my students told me, "You should write a book titled Intermediate Blacksmithing for Beginners". We all forge weld the first day.

[Fe-Wood]

I looked at the gate hook as a final test and though what a joke....I can cold from that in about 10 minutes in a vice and a few basic tools..... It a nothing piece and does not need any skill to complete....

I challenge you to do just that! Cold form it in 10 minutes, no prep. If this is truly how you work then you are ready to make something harder. It is up to you to do it. As mentioned before, we don't have an apprenticeship program here anymore. It is our own drive and desire that teaches us. And the people we choose to learn from.

[Frosty]

Dale, Gor: you seem to think hand forged work is an industrial trade needing some kind of certification to ply, like a doctor or certified mechanic, or certified welder, or. . . blacksmithing hasn't been that level commercial trade for at least 50 years, WWII pretty much ended that era of industrial life.

 

If you really feel you need a certification to be a blacksmith, write the curriculum you wish to learn and find someone to teach it to you. You'll probably have to pay said individual but that's part of certification, it costs.

 

Being certified also kind of ends the whole hobby thing too doesn't it?

 

I'm not saying you're wrong to look for such but you're being pretty abrupt when someone renders an opinion you don't like. Actually telling them to shut up and go away. that gentleman has been what you wish you had a certificate for and been good at it for some number of years without complaining about . . . Nevermind. This isn't worthy of getting upset about on any score.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[metalmangeler]

Just to muddy the water a little I think the main or true value of a cert. would end up being that the person who applied themselves to get it would end up learniing more if it were a good program than the person who did not think it was of any value. This seems to be what has happened in the farrier trade. People will push themselves it is a pride thing. a poor program will not end with as much pushing and then the whole program will suffer by being discredited.

[Larry H]

I happen to have been one of the last 125 smiths to take the test for blacksmith in NY, the practical was a breeze, the written, a bear, I don't remember exactly but i think i was #5 or 6. ( two I taught the practical part to, did better on the written, so scored better over all ) I will look around to see if I can find the study guide. By the way, only 25  passed, 20 hired

[Mark Emig]

I really like the idea of the National Curriculum as it provides a standard set of skills for a smith to learn-and a standard for them to be TAUGHT. I am a fairly skilled smith-no Master by any means. I have seen many Smiths (and I use the term loosely), who say they are a Smith of a certain level, but there skills don't match their words. If, let's say, I work my way through the National curriculum and make the grill, and assorted tooling, I know that I am a Smith of a certain level and can prove it. I can also use it in selling my work. It's kind of like the shade tree mechanic, versus the ASE certified mechanic. Who would I bring my $35,000 car with a problem to? The guy with the certificate. I am just speaking for my own view on the subject.

[FredW]

I don't think this was intended to be a debate but has become one. I like the idea of a curriculum for at least beginning blacksmithing to journeyman level. It adds validity to the craft as well as to the smith. It also gives the individual a sense of accomplishment which is huge to most people. I also think it will go a long way to bringing the craft back to the forefront, or at least out of the past and into the present. If we are concerned about the future of blacksmithing then why not, at least, try to make it comparable to other trades. If carpenters, sheet metal workers, laborers, etc., have apprenticeship programs then why not blacksmith.

 

enough of the debate, i really don't have much to add to where to find information on curriculums for blacksmithing but would think there would be something in the European groups. What about some universities that offer blacksmithing courses?

 

Fred

[Farmweld]

I'd like to chime in on this subject.

 

A couple of months ago I asked a similar question about course notes/testing criteria/etc and didn't get much in the way of responses, so be it.  I can understand where Dale is coming from as our little group in South Australia has been trying to come up with some sort of training curriculum for the people that want to join up and learn blacksmithing.  We have been trying to nut out a set of course notes that we can hand to people before they start and they will then know what they are going to be taught and by what criteria they will be expected to perform to to show they have learnt the lesson.  Frosty's list quoted below is a comprehensive list of basic skills which every blacksmith "should" know.

 

"1st. tier or basic, course. Learn all the basic skills of blacksmithing, fire managment, forging functions, bending, piercing, cutting, punching, drifting, tool steel includes, heat management during forging, heat treating, dressing, finishing and use. All joinery including welding."

 

I'd love to see the course notes that Frosty hands out and a description of the criteria he uses to judge whether someone has learn each basic skill and can perform it competently.  Or does that start to blend into his second tier quoted below. 

 

"2nd. tier or intermediate, involves putting techniques together consistently. For instance I hand them a leaf coat hook similar to the one they made in basic and their job is to make four just like it, looks, size, weight and finish. Not identical but alike enough they'd look RIGHT on a finished board on the wall by a upscale front door. Sets of built up items, say four fire tool sets with stands. mailbox stands are favorites, it goes on. They get to make themselves a chisel set or punch set, or.. . I allow leeway in what they make so long as they can maintain consistency in product form, quality, finish, etc."

 

We have many people who are really only interested in learning a couple of the basic skills to do the little projects they want to do, we have others who want to learn everything (usually in a four hour workshop), and some who come along and spend more time talking than hitting metal.  We try to accomodate everyone but it would be nice? to be able to award someone who has attained a level of competency the recognition that they have done so.  This begs the question of who judges their competency, by what criteria they are judged, and who judges the judges?  The European Guild system had that pretty well sorted out but it is not recognised or doesn't recognise anyone not trained in Europe, and setting up an Australian Guild is out of the question for a lot of reasons.

 

Finally from Frosty we have,

 

"Advanced? got me, I've never taken let alone passed an advanced course. Most of my kids are up to learning whatever they need, I've given them the tools they need, it's up to them to use them."

 

Which would probably equate to the "Master" designation before a trade in the Guild system.  Hard to make it relevant under todays conditions but there are a lot of blacksmiths, including many who are on this list, who are recognised as "Master" Blacksmiths whether they want the designation or not due to their skill level and years of experience.  I too have met some who claim to be "Master" Blacksmiths and have not been impressed with the person or their level of skill, I've met others who humbly claim no accolade but have an incredible depth of knowledge and skill, and are prepared to share it.

 

Personally I'm mainly self taught, but have been told I do good work, and I attempt to teach others all I can.  I would like to be able to quantify the criteria by which I teach others and make sure it is comparable to some sort of standardised curiculum, hence my interest in this subject.

 

Andrew Hood

[FredW]

deleted post, sorry about multiple post.