How much better are post vises vs bench vises?

[Paradigm11]

I follow a youtube guy that goes by Black Bear Forge and love his stuff. Recently I was watching a video where he espouses the reasons to own a post vise,

I've got a big ole antique vise I got out of a barn sale years ago and it does a great job. Big, heavy thing.

The advice on how the floating mechanism is preferred vs the screw / machinist vise because of the possibility of heavy blows torqueing the screw out of alignment makes sense to me.

I'm currently happy with my vise, but I'm curious if people have noticed significantly different quality of life between one or the other. Constantly on the lookout for them in my area, but as you might expect the market for heavy duty post vises is a fairly small one.

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning,

I have a multitude of different size Bench Vices, all for different purposes. I also have 2 giant Bench Vices that I got from a Machinist friend who's father used them when he was a full-time Blacksmith. I overloaded one, trying to separate a shaft and a 4 foot diameter Chipper Blade, a piece of the Vice casting broke. Yes, I wasn't using it for what it was made for, my Bad.

I also have quite a few Post Vices. The Post or the Leg is the support to ground zero (mother Earth), this transmits and absorbs/dissipates the shock loads of Hammering on something being supported in their Jaws. The Post or Leg Vices are the strongest Vices for Blacksmith work. A Bench Vice will work for some jobs, until they fracture the Cast Iron. Until then, you won't be disappointed.

If you want to find a Post Vice, ask people that you know and/or don't know. I have found that when I stop looking and start seeing, I will be inundated with them. Enjoy the search, there is no end to it!!

Neil

[George N. M.]

One advantage that I have found using a post vise rather than a machinist's vise is that the screw on a post vise is "faster."  That is, the jaw moves further for one turn of the handle.  This allows you to get hot metal into the vise and tighten the jaw faster so that you don't lose the heat in the work piece.

Also, post vises are more likely to be made of wrought iron or steel and so less brittle than cast iron.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[BillyBones]

A vise is a vise is a vise... as long as it is stout enough to do the work you need it to do. If you are planning on doing a lot of twisting, or bending a bench vise will serve you well for many, many years. Id you are planning on doing a lot of of upsetting and hammering on hot steel that is a bit different. You would need a pretty big and stout bench vise to do that where as you can use a much smaller post vise. The bigger the vise the more it costs as well. 

In my opinion there is no better, it is all in what do you plan on doing with it? Is it stout enough to do what you want it to do? 

 

[LeeJustice]

I would like to add in that to what and how your vise is mounted, whether it be a post or bench vise, is very relevant.  My 6 inch bench vise is bolted to a 1,000 Lb. welding table.  As such, it is not going anywhere when I am twisting or bending or banging on it.  On the other hand, my post vise is in a portable setup, mounted to a dolly.  The fact that I can readily move it around is great, but I have to put some ballast weight at the base.  Even then, I have to not get too physical with the use of it.  I hope this helps too.

[JHCC]

Any time we get questions about what is BETTER, we immediately have to ask ourselves what that means. For tools of any kind, the question is always, "What qualities make a tool more or less appropriate to the task at hand?"

In blacksmithing, a vise can be used for a number of things. It can hold a workpiece for bending, upsetting, twisting, filing, grinding, drilling, welding, and so on. It can also hold other tools, such as a scrolling jig or a bending fork.

For any operation that does not involve hammering, the only considerations are (a) how securely a vise can hold a piece within its jaws and (B) whether or not a vise has sufficient mass and is mounted firmly enough to resist the forces the operation puts on it. For operations that do involve hammering, there is the additional consideration of whether or not the force of the blows can damage the mechanism.

A massive bench vise will probably be robust enough for most general blacksmithing (especially things like twisting or bending), while a slender post vise with 3" jaws probably wouldn't stand up to heavy pounding, even though the mechanism of the latter is designed specifically to direct the force of hammer blows around the screw mechanism. Neither of them is good for anything if it's not securely fastened to a bench or other support.

Tl;dr: What BillyBones said.

[Frosty]

The only think I haven't seen mentioned is working height. Whether hammering or doing bench work there is an optimum height, just like an anvil. Too high can be hard on your shoulders and elbows hammering, having compensate for the loss of power in out of position blows is just one of the exacerbating issues. Too low for benchwork again increases joint wear, your back being high on the PITA list though it's harder to see what you're doing. Making sense so far? 

Then we get to the vise itself. Yes, a post/leg vise is designed to take impact, the heel (immobile) jaw is bolted directly to the post, bench / stand and connected directly to the planet. The hook or mobile jaw and screw are NOT solidly connected to the heel, impact forces are directed in a direction that the screw "floats" in the mobile jaw so it can NOT cause impact damage.  Lastly leg vises are more flexible both in design and material this allows them to fit to odd shapes to a degree and hold more securely and more importantly they can absorb impacts by flexing which distributes the forces over a larger volume.

Bench vises are rigid or they wouldn't be capable of the level of precision required by fine bench work. Part of the rigidity is the screw mechanism, it can NOT have a floating component so impact forces conduct directly to the screw's male and female side and is taken on relatively thin section of iron/ steel. The names of all the parts of threads is too complex to go into so I'll leave it to your google fu. Bench vises are made from cast iron or steel partly because it is more rigid in nature but also because it can be given a more rigid structure.

A bench vise jaw that can flex out of parallel like a leg vise wouldn't hold well enough to do many tasks. Threading a length of rod is a good example. Sure you can thread a bolt in a leg vise by chucking up in the center of the jaws, no problem right? Uh, what if you're threading the end of a 36" rod? Now you have to chuck it up off center to clear the screw and the vise jaw WILL flex out of parallel and will tend to "squirt" round rod like a watermelon seed. You CAN chuck up a long rod horizontally in a leg vise but again the jaws aren't parallel AND you have to work the threading die wrench 90* out of position. The bench vise's jaws remain parallel until they break which is unlikely using human muscle to tighten them. If properly mounted the top of the bench vise are slightly below YOUR elbow height and provide good ergonomics for most tasks. IN position.

You and the job you're doing are the most important determining factors of what tool to use and how you mount it. Just like any tool. 

I actually have several vises two leg and 3 bench vises. My most recent bench vise is a monster Wilton, queen of my fleet but I need to build a well in the bench to mount her or build her a separate stand she's a good 4" taller than my next largest vise. My 4" gracile leg vise is mounted to a portable stand and the 6" robust leg vise is mounted to a steel grate and heavy pipe "bench" cutting table. She's my hammer queen. 

But that's just MY shop and preference.

Frosty The Lucky. 

 

 

[George N. M.]

One more thought:  You can hold a long piece vertically in a post vise with the long end extending down below the jaws which you cannot do with a bench mounted vise.  Yes, you can hold the same piece horizontally in a bench vise but that makes it much more awkward to work on the short part sticking out the side.

For hot work I almost always use my post vises.  For cold work it is about 50-50 between the post and bench vises depending on what I am doing and which is more convenient.

The old rule for height of mounting is that the top of the jaws should be at your elbow height so that you forearm is horizontal when filing.  However, that is too high for a post vise if you are going to be hammering vertically on it.  I would say that a post vise should be mounted somewhere between the height of your elbow and your wrist when your arm is hanging at your side..

GNM

[Frosty]

Not picking an argument but the jaws on my bench vise extend past the ways so you can hold pieces vertically that reach the floor. I'd have to go out and measure to post an accurate distance though.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[JHCC]

50 minutes ago, George N. M. said:

However, that is too high for a post vise if you are going to be hammering vertically on it.

I've got a heavy-duty stepstool that give me an extra 10" or so, perfect for hammering vertically on something that is otherwise too high.

(Funny story with this: I picked it up from the industrial surplus place on my way to a business trip that included visiting IFI members Frazer and Latticino. As we were working in the former's shop, Latticino and I were having trouble striking at an anvil that was set pretty high, when I remembered that I had this out in the car. You should have seen the look on their faces when I ran out and brought it back in!)

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I have a box I built out of 2X6 scraps that I use (when I can remember). I forgot the other day when using a smithing magician mounted in the hardy hole. It raised the height of the top die about 8 inches so I couldn't get a good hit, if I had got the box to stand on I could of put some power into the hit. I finally gave up and moved over to the Star power hammer, even though the dies were not fullering dies. I really need to make set for the Star.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sail’s.
Semper Paratus

 

[Jason L]

One thing I like about leg vises that I don't see talked about much is the fact that the jaws are always held in tension with the spring so the moment you start turning the screw the jaws start moving as well. I know it's not a deal breaker but when I'm working with a bench vice and I'm trying to get something clamped quickly that extra bit of turning to take out the slack is slightly annoying. Easily forgotten within minutes but when it happens I notice. That said, any vice that will hold what you're working on is the right vice if it's the only vice. The only perfect tool in my shop is the one swinging the hammer, but I don't think the people who tell me that mean it entirely complimentary 

[Frosty]

If there is free movement in a machinist's vise screw it's worn. The only free play in the ones I have mounted is in the slide handle itself, just like my leg vises.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Jason L]

Lol. I don't think I've ever used a decent vice to be honest. I think every vice I've used had made more trips around the sun than me and led a rougher life (discounting the 80's of course).

[Frosty]

Uh HUH and how many more turns around the sun do you think the average leg vise has made? Hmmmmm? 

Ah, I'm poking fun at you, a leg vise handles screw wear a lot better than a bench vise as you said. I was starting to taper off the hard living in the 80s myself.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Jason L]

But the leg vice was made for blacksmiths, maybe even by blacksmiths. They do it right, not right now. The vices I'm used to were abused in ways they probably weren't built to withstand. I feel like if something made for a blacksmith can't withstand something it's because no one has ever tried that something before. The one thing I know about blacksmiths is, if it can't be destroyed, they will destroy it, then rebuild it better. It's like a personal challenge with some people and they can be very imaginative

[rich_c]

As an aside to the serious conversation here, I'd like to add that Black Bear Forge is John Switzer's shop/YouTube channel.  He is, as I have heard another blacksmith say, the "Bob Ross of blacksmithing".

[JHCC]

Although the time he got his hand caught in the power hammer was not a “happy accident”.

[Frosty]

That was a "how NOT TO" demonstration. 

I'm working on my benefit of the doubt reaction. 

Frosty The Lucky.