Testing laser thermometer for heat treatment

[Scott NC]

  I have never had ice cream tacos either but once I open a carton of ice cream sandwiches I can't stop eating them.  Those you have to lick around the sides, not the bottom to keep from melting all over.  The chocolate outside sticks all over you fingers so you have to keep licking them as well to keep it from building up.

[BillyBones]

Ice cream tacos are basically like a drumstick ice cream cone but the cone has been made into a taco shape. 

Choco Taco was the name brand of the ones from the ice cream truck, made by Klondike. had to look up who made them and discovered that somebody has now wrapped the ice cream in a rice crispy treat. May have to try that. 

I made the mistake of trying a Neapolitan ice cream sandwich not long ago. Oh lawdy they are tasty, especially the strawberry end. 

[JHCC]

Maybe I should be using the thermometer to test the melting points of these various confections.

[Frosty]

It'd help show it is a multi tasker! 

I'll have to look in the ice cream section of the local market, they carry a large selection of Klondike ice cream. Cool A Kool ice cream sandwiches were really good, they were covered in crunchy chocolate and toasted coconut. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[JHCC]

I'm partial to the Heath Bar Klondikes, but nobody else here likes toffee.

[Frosty]

Mmmmm Klondike Heath Bars those are yummy! I'd be more than happy to sit and enjoy one with you. I don't get to eat much ice cream anymore, it spikes my blood sugar too high. A little now and then I can do. It's been so long since I had more than a dab I don't remember what my favorite ice cream bar, sandwich, cone, ? was. I can't remember a bad ice cream anything. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Scott NC]

  Frozen yogurt is kind of disgusting.

  I like Klondike heath bars too.  When we were kids dad used to pour some coffee out of his cup on our vanilla ice cream (man was that good, I still do that from time to time).  But then he used to cut slices off the ice cream carton like a loaf of bread instead of scooping it out like most people.

  Probably shouldn't tease you with all this talk of ice cream.  And I was going to start in on types of hot pie with a scoop on top.  My doctor said I was pre-diabetic so I better watch it as well.

[BillyBones]

I got a big tin of chocolate walnut covered English toffee from my boss lady this past Christmas. I love toffee. I like the Skor bars better than the Heath though. Dont get me wrong both are tasty. 

My mom cuts ice cream like a loaf aslo. 

Frosty, i will ask my dad what kind of ice cream he gets. He is diabetic and eats it all the time, along with candies and cookies and what ever. He has type 1 (?) though, the kind you dont have to take insulin for, so i dont know if the dietary restrictions are the same. I am kind of ignorant when it comes to diabetes. 

[JHCC]

3 hours ago, Nodebt said:

When we were kids dad used to pour some coffee out of his cup on our vanilla ice cream (man was that good, I still do that from time to time).

We used to serve ice cream with a drizzle of maple syrup and a sprinkling of black walnuts. Also delicious. 

[Scott NC]

  We used to have a tree and I love black walnuts but for some reason they make my mouth sore. 

   Sounds scrumptious though.

[JHCC]

They sell them in one of the stores near me, but they always taste stale. 

[Scott NC]

  I wonder if walnuts have a "stale by date".  They are were pretty pricey back home.  I'd like to visit a factory that processes them and inspect the nut extraction process.  I think there was a black walnut conversation not but a few years ago on here.

[Frosty]

7 hours ago, BillyBones said:

He has type 1 (?) though, the kind you dont have to take insulin for,

As far as I know type 1 is totally insulin dependent, the pancreas isn't making insulin. I can eat anything but I have to account for it every time. Being type 2 my system has become insensitive to my own insulin so I take meds and insulin. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[anvil]

I should have responded here sooner,,,

I have spoken often, but not here about the use of tech tools and their accuracy, especially concerning the mark one eyeball, temp colors vs techie tools including thermometers and ovens. Instead of comparing, I'll add some thoughts from my time in the Navy. I was an electronics tech and worked on bomb and missile systems. All of our test equipment from multi-meters on up had a calibration function and a max hours usage before higher level maintenance re-calibration. Also, if you looked, there was a coefficient of error given in the specs. So with this in mind, a few years back I decided to search out price vs quality on HT ovens. My criteria for quality were the ability to calibrate, when and how to do a factory re-calibrate and the coefficient of error. Simply stated, as these three factors were included in the specs and tool, the cost went up and went up drastically. Memory being what it isn't anymore,,,  do your own contemporary checking if you are interested. So, as i remember, or not, HT ovens under a couple grand had none of the above. between a couple grand and 10 grand, these features were added and the more expensive, the more features. coefficient of error, when added, was in the same range for all. Over 10 grand, the coefficient of error got better. The error range for a couple grand to 10 grand was around 10%. JHCC, your tests using known materials is as good as it can get for under 2 grand and there are many environmental factors that may apply to effect accuracy. And, as you found out, the accuracy is not consistent from the coldest to the hottest your tool can read. What does this mean? basically, a piece of test equipment without any of the above just may,,, I say may,,, be slightly more accurate than your kitchen oven. 

Frank Turley did an experiment once and compared the accuracy of his mark one eyeball to a piece of test equipment to determine the temp colors his eye saw and associated temps. He stated he was within 10% coefficient of error. I don't know the quality of the equipment he used, but the test was done in his shop so ambient light changes was not a factor. 

What does this mean? lol, nuttun honey,,,,    However, JHCC, you posted a vid from a metallurgist concerning multiple normalizing steps, and how it wasn't needed. He mentioned using a magnet to hit critical temp and as long as you recognized a magnet loses its magnetism at a slightly lower temp than critical and you were experienced, it would work fine. He also gave an addy on where to get a color/temp chart and indicated he was familiar with it as well. To be real, he implied they would work with experience. He was selling ovens and listed a IR tool for checking temps, so he down played the mark one eyeball and magnet, but didn't discredit them completely. 

Again, what does this mean? Well it means that if you or me talk of a magnet or the mark one eyeball combined with experience being in the same range of accuracy as "test equipment" to a techi knife maker and his buds, you won't survive unless you have a very tough skin.  . To me it means that unless you have access to a university or industrial quality test equipment, I'm satisfied with following the same procedures as smiths have followed for hundreds of years,,, a magnet, the mark one eyeball and experience, no matter the steel I use as long as I have the spec sheet.. And lest we forget those techie knife makers are trying to sell their products and create a reputation in a very competitive market so they need every possible item to keep a good sharp competitive edge, you might say, to sell their product.

[Frosty]

How many years experience before you felt you were as accurate as off the shelf instrumentation? I'm not arguing, I agree on all counts. 

I developed my eye for color and temperatures starting in Dad's shop, holding torch on alloys that had to be spun hot. A few degrees could make a real difference. Some parts were spun at barely red up to rocket engine alloys that weren't spinnable at less that incandescent white. I started holding torch before I was 10 so I know where and how my mark 1 eyeball learned it's job. Temper colors were just another graduation series, EZ PZ.

If precision heat treatment is an important factor, whether it's required by the steel or it's a selling point you can get in real trouble if it's both. As you say, without spending serious money for precision equipment you run the risk of missing your heat treat specs, possibly dangerously so. 

So, a maker either without the experience to eyeball temps accurately enough or one who's  working with really sensitive alloys my advice is send it out to a reputable heat treater. There are even some specializing in blades and progressive hardening/tempering though I don't know what to expect for quality. 

A couple of the local bladesmiths swear professional heat treaters keep screwing up their blades. Uh HUH.

A laser thermometer is a REALLY handy thing in the shop, even if it's not dead on accurate, much of what we do is in the "close enough" range. It's like the one Deb bought me for the kitchen it's close enough at +/- about 4 degrees. A drop of water in a pan of oil on the stove boils between 209 - 113. Deep frying doesn't need to be nearly that close. What I find really valuable is locating temp differentials in my pans, flat top and to a much lesser extend the char grill. 

While it may not be s accurate as an experienced eye a laser thermometer can certainly help track what needs more or less time/heat before you can expect colors. Maybe a maker doesn't NEED one but I'm not a guy to ignore input. I can calibrate the instrument by eye or close enough.

Frosty The Lucky.

[JHCC]

It's certainly true that an experienced smith can judge temperature pretty accurately by eye. That said, I know that as a part-time smith at best, I will never, ever be able to put in enough shop time to develop that experienced eye. Assuming the laser thermometer to be even moderately accurate, it's going to be a lot more accurate than I can judge by eye and therefore will give me the capacity to do much more accurate heat treatment.

[Frosty]

Using the thermometer will teach your eye to judge temperature much more quickly than trial and error. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[anvil]

Well, you guys, heres the deal. John, you just added a new tool to my toolbox. Thanks for that. I put this up because I wanted people to recognize the problem, then knowing this, you will have a better tool. The problem is calibration. As an example, For me, I decided long ago not to get a HT oven for that reason. I believed that I could calibrate the ole mark 1 eyeball and, for my needs, end up with good shop tools. So I use a lot of coil spring for my punches instead of a better steel, for instance. Easy and quick to dress when the end mushrooms. Dress it and heat treat. If I did good, it lasted a while. If not, do it again,,, practice makes perfect. I couldn't do this with an oven unless I put big bucks into it. The analogy with the punch is calibration. To dress a 1/4" punch to fit is a mechanical recalibration. Well, you solved that problem. Use tempil sticks. If in the future I would not hesitate to buy either an oven or thermometer and a handful of tempil sticks and then calibrate it. I just never quite put it together that way. 

Frosty, "How many years experience before you felt you were as accurate as off the shelf instrumentation" Lol, My first tool was a cold chisel made from coil spring, fall, 1979. Its a primary tool and got lots of miles on it. I've never owned a store bought chisel, but used them at other shops. I've seen alot of these with chips, have no idea the cause. Mine has never chipped, so I assume my first tool must be as good as a store bought. To paraphrase Tom Bredlow, " as good as mine, huh? Might as well use mine then."   

Time to learn, I think it depends on the individual. Using my  example above dressing a coil spring punch, it doesn't take many "do-overs" with a magnet and a color chart, hammer and file, to match colors on the chart with the residual heat driven colors in the  polished iron. This isn't a better or worse deal, just a learning time deal. I still use both magnet and chart for all my HT.  

[JHCC]

I’m more than happy to use the Mark I eyeball for things like punches, chisels, and such. My main motive for adding this to the toolbox for things where I really need more precise temperature control, like working with tool steels (S7, H13) or blades.

[BillyBones]

Frosty, like i said i am ignorant about diabetes. I just know me old man doesnt have to use insulin so i guess that would be type 2. He has always had a sweet tooth and searched high and low for stuff he could satisfy it with that is actually good. When i say good that is to me and i am really sensitive to the taste of artificial sweeteners. 

Anvil, the first tool i ever forged was a cold chisel also. It was in metals shop class in high school. After that we did a screw driver. I think my dad still has the screw driver in his tool box. When we did spot welding we made small tool boxes to keep out chisel and screw driver in. I long ago repurposed the sheet metal from that though. 

JHCC, never to many tools in the box of tricks. 

[Frosty]

I don't know how long it took before I could judge temperature by color, anvil. I was good at judging heat by time I was 10-11, I wasn't thinking temperature though. I was judging the pliability of the parts being spun and how they moved, those are often two different things. When I started to need to judge temperature it was just one more condition to associate with color It was more of an adjustment than learning a skill.

I still determine working temp by feel and ear more than color. A couple times in the fire and on the anvil lets me judge what color works today. Dim, bright light is an adjustment. Heat treating I use a magnet so I don't really need to judge anything but the temp's evenness or graduated the way I want.

The first thing I forged was a chisel in jr. high metal shop 1. The instructor demoed one including heat treating it. I watched a couple other guys make one and when it was my turn I nailed the heat treat. No idea what the temp was but if you want it THIS color you got THAT color. Dad kept and used that chisel till he stopped using chisels. My second metal shop 1 project was a screw driver. 

Did you draw file a cube? 

There's so much about diabetes I don't know I can't say you're wrong Billy, I've just never heard of a type 1 case that didn't require insulin. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[anvil]

You can't beat the feel under the hammer for knowing where you'r at instead of or in conjunction with colors for forging, but I'm focusing on color because of using tempil sticks and a color chart to calibrate a temp gage.  Thats my lightbulb moment here. 

I didn't have that kind of mechanical background as you, what good fortune. My parents did pretty good. They taught me to make my own decisions and be responsible for those choices. Boy did that come back and bite them in the posterior when I refused the engineering pathway and set off thru trackless wastelands  to be a farrier and someday a Blacksmith!   

 

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

On 6/17/2022 at 7:39 AM, Nodebt said:

We used to have a tree and I love black walnuts

Ive got two old walnut trees in the yard…. And about 5000 saplings that pop up faster then I can cut em down!

On 6/17/2022 at 8:27 AM, JHCC said:

They sell them in one of the stores near me, but they always taste stale. 

This Next fall hop in the truck an run down here,

I’ll load you up with as many fresh walnuts as you can haul!… better yet bring a trailer too!

i don’t care for walnuts myself so I give ‘em away every year by the barrel loads to anyone who wants to come take em, 

last year no one came so the critters got em, made for some healthy squirrels though! Lol

[George N. M.]

BTW, black walnuts make a great dye stuff for coloring yarn, kind of a red brown.  Use the husks outside the hulls.  We used to have a black walnut tree and the way I separated the hulls from the nuts for Martha was lining them up on the driveway and driving the car's tires over them.  Removed the husks and didn't harm the nuts.  Usually used the treadle hammer to crack the shells.

Black walnuts for dying are similar to butternuts which were used for dying Confederate uniforms during the American Civil War.

There are enough steel wool couples here that someone might be interested in the husks as a dye stuff.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[JHCC]

That’s why you don’t gather black walnuts barehanded!