I want to build a company

[JW513]

I still lack the skill, but this year I'm going to spend more time in the forge.. Last time i was in the forge was almost a year ago... Except for my knife making class.  But working in the family business isn't working out...  My own family has taken advantage of me and I can't do it anymore. But i'll continue on with them while I build up my company..   I've gotten into steel bending and old time strongman workouts...  My goal is to start fabricating workout equipment. I'm going to learn how to weld as well... I'm in construction.. I have many friends who could always need something welded. 

I'd be interested in finding a foundry who can cast things for me. It's obviously would be a lot of work and maybe its just a dream but, the only time I'm truly happy and into what i'm doing is when i'm working with metal.  So i'm just looking for any tips and ideas... Plus reasons why I should or shouldn't do it...  I don't really want to work for anyone else. Once you work for yourself...No matter how much it might suck at times, i can't imagine not being my own boss. 

Either that or I become a public adjuster... There is money in that and I believe its relatively  recession proof.

[ThomasPowers]

Take any small business administration classes offered in your area to see what's involved.  Also MA has not the best business environment for various reasons are you willing to move someplace with less "overhead"?

[Daswulf]

Just some thoughts, you may want to learn as much as you can about welding before you start and jump into purchasing a welder and proper ppe. I'd look for classes or courses on it and take some. The welder(s) you get will need to be a good match to what you will be welding and how often/much you will be welding. 

I imagine there would be a Lot of liability in such equipment so you'd want to be proficient at welding before you sell a piece of equipment. 

Do you have designs for equipment that would bring them to buy Yours over what is out there? Also designs of your own that would not infringe on copyrights? I'm not a lawyer or knowledgable on those things but it is a consideration. 

Also metal bending shaping machines. There is that. 

I'm not trying to put you off, just thinking of some considerations for your plan. 

[JW513]

1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said:

Take any small business administration classes offered in your area to see what's involved.  Also MA has not the best business environment for various reasons are you willing to move someplace with less "overhead"?

Yes I am and would love too, that is part of my issue. I don't want to drag my personal life in here...  But long story short, I've been taking care of an elderly couple for 11 years... Every year I do more and more, now he has dementia but still knows whats going on... He likes to go for walks and when that happens I get a call from the bank or his attorney and gotta leave work to pick him up..... She is starting to get forgetful....  Their doctors and attorneys all call me.. Its very complicated and stressful and unique situation but I'd never walk away.

 

So that is a big factor. I'd like to move to the Finger Lakes region of upstate New York where my mum is from.  But can't now due to the circumstances.. I know starting/owning a company is a big deal.. I've been helping run and now a legal owner of the family business since high school, I have a good idea of what does into it.. But I love forging and would love to find a way to make money doing what I love.

 

the flip side is when you HAVE to do it, it might become a chore instead of something I love.

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

I was very lucky; I apprenticed to a swordmaker in my late 20's and planned to go into knifemaking as a career.  I learned that while I love it as a hobby I did NOT like it as a business and was able to change my career path without being ground into the dirt and bankruptcy.  I went on to work for companies that very nicely paid me, provided health benefits---a big plus when I became an Adult Onset Juvenile Diabetes person, and was able to buy lots of blacksmithing stuff as I had an income that would provide for a family and have some left over for hobbies.

Now as I retire, (today!), I have a nice shop to play in and I am NOT going to smith as a Business!!!!!!!!!!

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Congratulations on the retirement Thomas.

JW513 - I had a small  machine and fab shop when I was in my 20's. Closed it up in 93, and it has been hard punching a clock for others since.  Everyone want to do the fun stuff, but the office part is equally important, just not nearly as fun. I want to start another business, but I have two requirements - I own the building, and no debt. We cash flowed the machine shop, and that worked great for us. Everything was paid for with cash. Unfortunately, the building we were renting got sold, and the new owner used it for their business, and kicked us out. I ended up working for a former customer. The no debt rule is the one I would push you to follow.

[rockstar.esq]

JW513,

After many years of consideration, I have concluded that the universal key to success in business comes down to two things.

Timing

Opportunity

Hard working intelligent people fail all the time.  Right along side them are stupid lazy people who jump in for the wrong reasons at the right time and find success.

Business classes will touch on process oriented ; accounting, organization, law, and marketing on a superficial level. What those classes won't teach is clarity of purpose.  

The difference is more meaningful than it might appear.  See when each part  is a "trust the process" part of the whole, the connection between action and outcome gets broken.  It'll hurt a lot of feelings admitting this, but most of the "best practices" are better suited to avoiding blame, than the pursuit of success.

So when people ask "How do I price my work?" they typically get a lesson on estimating, which is broadly understood to be making a long list of stuff to add up for their total.

That trusts the process, the book answer if you will, in a situation where there's probably competition in their market.  See if they can't hit the selling price profitably, they just proved that either their timing is off, or their opportunity isn't what they thought it was.  Nobody want's to see that conclusion, so they re-double their efforts on the best business practices.

Clarity of purpose puts all of this in a different order.  You want to be successful in a specific market.  Get involved in that market.  Go work for your future competitor, so you'll meet your future customers, employees, and vendors.

Build your knowledge of business practices with classes, and use that knowledge to observe what actually matters in successful business operations.  Look for opportunities to improve on what you find.  All of that will make you a fierce competitor when you launch your business.  Maybe look into boring stuff that grinds along without much fuss.  Well managed operations tend to look like everything falls into place.  Look for people with clarity of purpose and pay attention to what they focus on.

Be advised that markets don't exist for all businesses.  If there's nobody doing what you want to do, there's probably a good reason for that.  

I wish you luck

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard JW, glad to have you. I approach hobbies more seriously than what you describe for starting a business!  The forum Rockstar is a professional, his above advice is as good as you'll get without paying for it. 

I also see some personal traits that making breaking into a marginal business a poor prospect. EG. your responsibility to take care of the elderly couple, while noble appears to already be beyond your capabilities. It sounds like they need live in caregivers or a facility specifically intended for their needs. There is NO shame in admitting a task has grown beyond your abilities. The only real shame would be the gentleman getting hit by a bus while YOU (the caregiver) was away at work. 

If you want to run a business you can NOT approach it in such a haphazard manor or you're just buying equipment and tools for the people attending your bankruptcy auction. Success is NOT built on intentions or trying hard, it's built on a solid foundation of skill, education and sweat.

As a kid I used to go to bankruptcy auctions with Dad. Many of the business owners we were shopping were ex employees of his. He taught many people to be metal spinners a year and they stayed around maybe a few months, a couple were with us for decades. Dad used to predict which one were going to start their own spinning business and how soon afterwards we'd attend the going out of business sale or auction. Almost all his equipment was bought at auction or surplus. 

We almost never saw him for dinner or on weekends, his typical week was around 80 hrs. too much was paperwork AND he had a book keeper on the payroll. He didn't work for himself, he worked for the business and worked harder than any wage earner.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Scott NC]

  My dad had polio as a child and it left him what some people call crippled.   Today it's handicaped.  Bad limp and other things.   He had to make his own fortune without any help, because he couldn't work at a "regular" job.  He started numerous business's and succeeded at some and others were total failures.  He never gave up though.  He was a great success in my eyes.   When he passed away he left me with a landscaping and tree nursery business to look over.  I have no head for business so I eventually gave up.  Not because of laziness or lack of a work ethic.  I was cut out for other things.  To each their own.  

[JW513]

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

Welcome aboard JW, glad to have you. I approach hobbies more seriously than what you describe for starting a business!  The forum Rockstar is a professional, his above advice is as good as you'll get without paying for it.

Frosty The Lucky.

Regarding the old people.  I've tried to get additional help.. I'm not the power of attorney and don't want to be. I was just a friend who little by little did more and more to the point they became dependent on me.  

I should have been more clear in my original post.. I also would like to do railings and gates/fences.  A very good friend who started out as a blacksmith 50 years ago's just retired last year. I have his old blacksmithing stuff.... He soon found out there was more money in railings and welding/fabricating than blacksmithing and became known for his railings around Boston....  He left a huge void by retiring...  I'd like to take his place in the market and he would be honored if I did. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Mod30
Trim quote.

[George N. M.]

JW, I think what mot of us are saying is that there are two skills you need for any business, the craft, in your case the skill to make gates and railings fast enough an well enough and designed appropriately AND the business skills to be able to market, sell, produce, deliver, etc. the railings and gates.  They are two different skill sets and both are necessary and you need to be competent at both and enjoy both.  If one or both skill sets are not enjoyable or at least tolerable there is, IMO, no point in moving forward.  Life is too short to do something that doesn't give you at least some pleasure.  This is probably why Nodebt gave up the landscaping and nursery business.  It is not a matter of not being able to do it but a question of enjoyment and motivation.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

PS Remember, there is a big difference in making something for the pleasure of making it or as a hobby that may pay for itself and making things upon which you and you family depend on for food, shelter, medical care, transportation, clothing, etc..  There is a LOT more pressure in the latter situation and it is not something that anyone should go into lightly.  There are lots of mines and booby traps out there.  As an old Viet Nam acquaintance said, "Makes no sense to walk into an ambush."

[Frosty]

Old people? Are you talking about us or what?  Just kidding, I've felt the same trap. As a young teen our youth group did volunteer work for the elderly and handy capped, sometimes for a modest wage. It was hard to get away after doing an hour or two of yard work, cleaning or whatever was needed and it really hurt to have to say no. For the most part the people we were helping really needed company, not weeds pulled, a lawn mowed and raked, etc. they needed someone to care enough to sit and talk. 

It was heart breaking to not go back but I had a job, even as a youngster I had a job or didn't have lunch money let along free spending cash. Once my Sister and I were old enough to do chores or work in Dad's shop in the garage without getting hurt we worked for our money, allowances stopped. 

Anyway, I know what you mean by feeling trapped helping the elderly couple, they need help. It's a good thing you do but can you afford it? You certainly won't be able to start a business or even take the training and courses you need to get a job in the fabrication world, let alone start and run a business with a prayer of success.

If you count 2 semesters every school year since the 12th. grade, trade school and growing up in Father's shop I could've earned a masters degree in a more academic track. Instead I became a certified welder and fabricator. Timing put me in a situation where welders and fabricators were a dime a dozen and unless you were extraordinarily good you were lucky to get a helper's position for helpers wages.

So, with all my certs and years of schooling I became an equipment operator. Earned a good living with insurance, benefits and an excellent retirement. Best of all I never had to worry about paperwork much thicker than my time sheet. Unless I screwed up and broke something or had an accident. 

Scott: My Father grew up during the depression and until he was old and large enough to find better work he chipped bark off logs in Lake Washington to dry and sell as stove wood. What he earned went into the household funds. When he'd grown enough, 9yro, he went to work in a blacksmith shop sharpening plow shears on a 50lb. Little Giant. I found that out from my Uncle Fred and it explains why Dad was so dead set against me blacksmithing. I couldn't convince him I did it for fun and had no intention of doing it as a job. Seems the shop master Dad worked for was a harsh task master more likely to cuff an employee if they couldn't take him in a fight. Dad had to quit school mid way through the 8th. grade and get a full time job. He earned a GED in I believe 91 to keep the job RUNNING a largish machine and metal spinning shop for a company. Couldn't work there if you weren't at least a high school grad you know.

Dad learned metal spinning and machining as part of FDR's New Deal. It got him out of starvation wage hard scrabble life. Mother's story wasn't much different except girls didn't really get jobs, they stayed home and did women's work. She made money for the household by knitting. Listening to her knit was like hearing someone pull a zipper slowly. Her father was a Superior court judge and a circuit judge during the worst of the depression so they weren't in danger of losing their home or going hungry but they were far from well to do. 

Come WWII Dad was drafted but classified as having a trade that was critical to the war effort and went to work spinning and machining. Mother and "Mom" AKA Suzie, our maternal Grandmother went to work for Boeing. Mother ended up as an instrument setter she had long dexterous fingers, Mom was tiny, almost 5' tall and became a cable puller and rivet buck because she could crawl clear to the ends of wings and buck rivets, etc. 

Scott: Our parents were tougher than we are and we're tougher than the generations after us. Our Grand Parents and Parents didn't have anything like well fare or social security to help them through tough times. The depression saw soup lines and people sleeping under old newspapers in the park or alleys. Hunger and homelessness was a national reality. 

We're comparatively soft and our folks told us so. Funny thing is Mom said the same thing about my parents not knowing the value of a dollar or what it was to not have enough. Mom was born in 1890 and as a child learned women's work early and for dolls she and her sister made them from twists of grass and made cloths from colored pages in old magazines that weren't recycled. Color magazines weren't worth very much to the paper companies. Mom showed me how to join paper without staples, tape or glue with a little fold, tear a tab and fold it back. Tape? Hah, they weren't wealthy, they had a house, food and heating oil. Heat for the house was from the cook stove and getting electricity was a REALLY BIG DEAL, it meant the doctor could perform surgery without having to wait for a hopefully clear day and sunlight. 

Christmas gifts ran to things like a spool of thread and a thimble. They had to use their Mother's needles and pins, those were expensive, her Mother might get a packet of pins or needles as a gift. 

My paternal Grandfather was killed by the "Spanish flu" in 1918 just before Dad was born, he was a logger as were most of the male kin on that side of the family. Loggers or closely related trades, one branch were mill wrights another built rail roads. The Millwright branch built RR turn tables. My paternal Grandmother was a logging camp cook who progressed to Bullcook, basically in charge of a camp's housekeeping. THE boss lady.

The man she married after Dad's Father died was pretty abusive and actively tormented Dad and his brothers. When my Uncle Fred had had enough he took a pick handle to him while he was putting Dad and Uncle Frank in the hospital beating on them. Uncle Fred won that round of the fight and Grammy was forced to admit her husband had to go but he laughed at her and roughed her up.

She mentioned needing him gone at the camp, a few loggers explained it to him and he was never heard from again. There is no word beyond that in the family stories so I don't know his fate. 

Tough times make tough people and tough people don't quit till they're beat. I don't doubt for a second your Dad kept at it till he succeeded Scott, polio or not. Heck, I knew polio survivors as a kid, the Parents worked and were friends with quite a few. Not many people thought much of folks with deformed or crippled limbs, especially not ones who were on top.

For the readers who don't know what I meant by the above, Google, "FDR" 

Sorry for the early morning ramble but I'm just in awe of what my parents and theirs did with what they lived with.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[LeeJustice]

JW, something seemed familiar about what you have mentioned recently so I creeped on your profile and found that, yes, you were asking about being in the US Navy last year.  I had commented on that, too.

Anyhow, instead of trying to discourage you, I read a local news story about a fellow here in Greenville, SC.  His business name is JHA Works, check it out.  If I remember correctly, the story said that he had studied/worked with the guy who runs Creative Ironworks, also in Greenville.  Just suggestions that I recently had read about.  I do not know them personally or professionally.  One of them showed a lot of mass production of some scrolled work.  I found it quite interesting.

[Scott NC]

  Yes Jerry, The New Deal helped a lot of people.  Hoover Dam put a lot of people to work.  Even sprang up a city IIRC.  A lot of stuff may not have existed without it.

  Dad came from a large family and my aunts and uncles used to take turns carrying/walking him to school, because of his illness.  They had horses, but they were for work.  There were a lot of stories about how bad things got.  My memory is shot.  We have printed and bound family albums, maybe time to give them a re-read.   The other side of the family didn't fare so well, they lost the farm due to taxes.  Bad times but they rebounded and landed a smaller acreage and have prospered since.  I let the taxes on my farm lag once and caught hxll from everybody.  I could never understand why mom re-washed plastic forks and saved bit's of fabric for patches.  I had a pair of jeans she wouldn't let die once.  99.9% patches.  I have a picture of them somewhere.  I wore them strictly at the farm....   She's still at it to this day with rubber bands, twist ties, and the like.  But I understand.  That may be why I tear everything apart for nuts, bolts, springs and ect....  She's out in her newly made raised beds right now spreading aged cow manure, at 80 years old.  I'd help her but she say's it's her project.  You have to be tough at ANYTHING you do.  Thanks for sharing.  I hope it inspires or warns other's as the case may be.....

  Btw, good for Uncle Frank!

  Scott

  Btw,btw, I once got a hotwheel inside a carved out potato, stuck back together with toothpicks for Christmas.  No wrapping paper either.... 

[Frosty]

Where was your ball of string kept? Ours was under the kitchen sink with the aluminum foil ball. The used wrapping paper had it's own box, gift paper had it's own too. I still keep rubber bands and bread bag clips, I'm over twist ties.

I've never gotten anything that uniquely  packaged. Was it baked? 

I was volunteered by an old friend to watch and feed her kids on short notice. I got there and discovered there wasn't anything in the cupboards but snacks and junk. Soooo, I cut a core from 3 potatoes and inserted a hot dog. Wrapped and baked they're actually quite tasty. The tater soaks up the tube steak juices nicely. It's an old Boy Scout trick. The kids laughed while they scarfed them down and were talking about it for years. I of course ate one with them, they're good eats I didn't want to miss out. 

It's not that Phyllis didn't have food in the house there just wasn't anything that wouldn't take an hour or two but the kids were hungry now and I wasn't going to let them fill up on candy and junk.  If there was any burger thawed I would've stuffed the taters with that, onions and such. Those were THE primo Boy Scout first supper on a camp out dish. We'd make them in advance and freeze them to bake around the camp fire. Mmmmm, mmmm, good.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Scott NC]

  Bread bag clips over twist ties?  You can use twist ties on everything.  They even can be twisted together for bigger uses/projects.  The twine/string/wire balls we kept on the back porch.

  No baking on the potato present, I suppose it would have melted the wheels and gave an off taste to the spuds.

  Your pig in a tater dish sounds worth a try.... Tonight it's delivery pizza.  We moved all the heavey junk from storage (empty and done!) and nobody want's to cook.  I suppose feeding the crew is the least I can do....   I twisted my knee moving the lathe but who cares!

  Btw:  we used to catch it for ripping wrapping paper on x-mas morning.... 

[Frosty]

I could ask Deb to explain why you should care about twisting your knee. We walked 3 laps yesterday and she was up most of the night and been hurting more than usual all day. You want to avoid needing to replace them if possible. We walked one lap today and it loosened things up a LITTLE. 

We had Digiorno pizza for dinner last night. Tonight it's artichokes! The first decent looking ones in a long time. Mmmmm.

Oh yeah, NO ripping wrapping paper off presents in our house, Mom watched us like a hawk to make sure. Mother and Father didn't really care but it made Mom happy so . . . 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Scott NC]

  I'm generally pretty careful but I forgot the dolly I was using to load the lathe had swivel casters and it started spinning around at just the wrong time.  Just a little twinge today.  Mom had her knee done 5? years ago and it was a long recovery.  Tell Deb Hi!

[Frosty]

Yeah, can't help tweaking things now and then. Deb and I walked 2 laps the second day not one and she's been hurting worse than usual since. The therapist didn't flex her much or have her do the crazy walks but spent a lot of time doing deep massage and manipulation. Deb's sore tonight but the pain's eased quite a bit. 

Pushing is good but I think she found out what too much means. She had a follow up with the surgeon last week and he was very happy with her progress. She's improving a lot faster than she thinks she should.

You bet I'll tell her you said hi. 

Jer

[Scott NC]

  I hear you.... Mom broke her arm right before we moved and it was all I could do to keep her from trying to pack and tape boxes.  She despises pain pills and can't take Tylenol.  She's a tough ol bird.  Sad to say, she's got more up and at'em at 80 than I do....  Mostly.....  Sadly, her other knee is now plaguing her and she has cataract surgery coming up.  She'll do fine, but, take this with a grain of salt, I feel like Neil Young, it's better to burn out than fall apart... 

[Frosty]

I've been impressed with your Mom, tough is an understatement but I think that's a cultural bias. We're taught from kidhood to think of women as weaker, needing shelter and assistance in everything. 

I wouldn't mind fading away a little, say 30lbs. of fade. Unfortunately I like food. I was working on burning out but almost got snuffed like a cigarette by the tree. I'm lucky to maintain a smolder anymore. <sigh>

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

I come from a long line of Farm Wives that could butcher a hog, sew a dress or plow the back 40 while their husband was recuperating from being sick or hurt.   I was NOT taught that women are weaker, I was taught to never get in the way of one when they had a head of steam up!

[Frosty]

Oh SURE, be that way, learn from example and ignore what proper culture says. I grew up in a family that lived the "Don't mess with the momma," aphorism.

My paternal Grandmother was a proper Victorian lady and men were for heavy, dirty, dangerous, labor and such when necessary. Not that women weren't supposed to work hard, Grammy was THE bull cook for logging and milling camps until she retired. If SHE needed someone or something bowled over she dropped a hint to the loggers and it got properly bowled.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Scott NC]

  I never heard mom or grandma complain about anything, ever.  I steered clear of grandpa.

  I like food too much too, Jerry, but that doesn't slow me down none.  The prices are trying.  Lasagna and garlic bread with a chunk of parmesean tonight!

[ThomasPowers]

I've loved the dichotomy of the "Shrinking Violet Southern Belle"  farm girl that dressed to the tens for the dance was rebuilding a tractor engine and butchering hogs earlier in the day.  Never liked the "helpless ones"; had an uncle marry one like that. Couldn't cook, clean, take care of kids...