ChiefLittleBair Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 Hello everyone, I just picked this up yesterday. With the number of cracks in the body, I'm wondering if this anvil has been through a fire? A file bites the face, although not as easily as dead soft steel so my guess is its high 30s to mid 40s on the hardness scale. Weighs 171 pounds if im not mistaking. I was wondering the age on her. Markings are as follows ARMIGAGE MOUSE HOLE 1*2*3 Theres no sheffield stamped above the weight nor is there room for it as if it were worn off. Also a weird escutcheon stamp in the front of the base under the horn? She appears to not really be that used, but just abused. No signs of major use of the horn nor the chisel plate, the main bummer would be the piece of plate missing from the face, but for $180 I couldn't pass it up..... Rings really well, and rebound seems decent with a hammer. I can't find my big ball bearing at the moment to really test rebound. That kinda sways me from thinking it was in a fire since ring and rebound are still good. No idea why the cracks in the body.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rojo Pedro Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 Hi Chief. Im not sure those cracks are really cracks but forge weld seams. Pretty sloppy if that was the finished product. the face plate looks very thin like perhaps it was ground or milled at one point. I am certainly no expert however. For that price I would use it hard and not worry about doing more damage and as you said the horn looks good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 The only thing of concern to me with that anvil is that it looks to be worn through the face plate at the front. As RP mentions, anvils were forge welded up out of chunks of real wrought iron and as they age some start showing the weld areas. If it has a good ring then it's a solid mass with only superficial cracks. It's a GREAT++ price and has a lot more life left on it as long as you don't do anything to thin the face plate that is left! (No Grinding, Milling, etc.) If you want to do some repairs to it use ONLY the Gunther/Schuler method of anvil repair!!! I've had several anvil repairs done that way at "Anvil Repair Clinics" held by Abana Affiliates, (one in Ohio and one in NM, so far). Please not that many anvils are ruined by expert machinists and welders who are NOT experts on anvils and so do things that seem good to them and ruin the anvil! I also do not consider 171 pounds to be a "large" anvil. It's a good size for a professional smith's shop back in the day and a great size to base a hobby shop on. (I recently sold a 248# PW that I considered "intermediate sized"; between my 165# shop anvils, (HB & PW) and the "large" 400#+ anvils, (Fisher and Trenton), that are ongoing treatments for my chronic "Anvil Envy". Of course I have met Auctioneers who thought that 70# anvils were LARGE anvils. I learned to call ahead and find out how many people it took to move the anvil. 1 very light, 2 ok, a laugh and "we used a tractor/forklift/front end loader and I'd go to the auction---before I developed the TPAAAT to find anvils at much better prices! So tell us how you found that one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefLittleBair Posted April 6, 2021 Author Share Posted April 6, 2021 57 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: If you want to do some repairs to it use ONLY the Gunther/Schuler method of anvil repair!!! So tell us how you found that one? I've been doing a bunch of research on the Gunther/Schuler method of repair. The anvil has good ring except for right around one edge of the delam on the face. It sounds a little fuzzy so the face is delaminated a tad beyond the missing part. Im considering grinding the delam out to get rid of all the crack, then having my brother weld it up for me. I'm a machinist and my brother is a welder so we are capable to do whatever lol (sarcasm, we have welded up a beat up PW before without ill effect. Just takes time and care and its not "just like welding or machining at work") Proper anvil repair I actually find quite fun and you have to be almost tedious, not just throwing a bead of 7018 down and calling it good. Found it on Facebook marketplace. The guy who was selling it just buys and sells in the auction business for a living. He must have gotten a steal on it and didn't know what he had, he had it listed for $200 and it was described as 100+ pounds without much more description. I told him I'd buy it pretty much sight unseen at that price as he was about 2.5 hours away from me. When we met and I saw the cracks I got kinda worried because I didn't have anything to ring test it with to see if the cracks were more cosmetic or if they went through. I mentioned that maybe it had been through a fire and the stresses of heating and cooling at too fast a rate made the wrought split. All I was doing was making an observation, and right off the bat he goes, "oh, well $180 and you can have it". It was already sold before he said that, but that really set the deal in stone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 Great deal and the extra $20 can go for propane for the preheat if you repair it! The problems I alluded to are mainly that a lot of anvils have a thin high carbon face and so treating it like it's all mild steel and you can mill it down or weld up the edges without dealing with the HC face causes issues. I have personally seen anvils where they didn't deal with the fact that old anvils were "free handed" under steam hammers and the face may not be parallel to the base. On two I have seen where they actually milled through the face and into the soft wrought iron body---right over the sweet spot too! I saw another where they milled the face down till it was too thin to take hammer blows---just to get nice sharp edges---which are a BAD thing for anvils anyway. (That one was owned by a friend of mine who paid good money for the anvil, then paid good money for it to be ruined and then drug it around with him for a couple of decades---it was finally repaired at the NM anvil repair clinic, took 5 hours of welding after the preheat to build up the face to usability. (The welding was done by a welding instructor using commercial equipment; I'd hate to have to pay commercial rates for that!) The other issue is people welding up damaged edges without proper preheat and so the edge cracks in use; but deeper into the anvil that it had previously. I tell folks that if they absolutely have to mill on an anvil face, to first turn it upside down and mill the base parallel to the face, then flip it and just lightly kiss the face with the mill. In 40 years of smithing I have seen 3 anvils that I thought should be milled; thousands that were OK to use as they were! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefLittleBair Posted April 7, 2021 Author Share Posted April 7, 2021 Would anyone with an AOA book be able to get a rough date on this for me based on the markings on the side? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefLittleBair Posted April 8, 2021 Author Share Posted April 8, 2021 There is a little bit of a bulge on the under side of the hardy hole suggesting it was drifted, but the underside of the pritchel hole is smooth so I believe it was drilled aftermarket (retrofitted). Based on this and the logo stamping which I believe I can see the remains of a "M H" stamped above the "ARMITAGE", that would place this anvil in the 1820-1830 manufacture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HickoryTree Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 Anvils in America says: M&H / Armitage/ Mouse/ Hole is circa 1820-1875. If it also had "forge" after the mouse then 1830 to 1875. But it also says the dating of Mousehole anvils by their trademark is subject to change as new information is obtained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HickoryTree Posted April 16, 2021 Share Posted April 16, 2021 Actually Chieflittlebear I think your right on the date. Postman's Mousehole Forge book does say M&H / Armitage/ Mouse/ Hole is circa 1820-1835. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefLittleBair Posted April 16, 2021 Author Share Posted April 16, 2021 12 hours ago, HickoryTree said: Actually Chieflittlebear I think your right on the date. Postman's Mousehole Forge book does say M&H / Armitage/ Mouse/ Hole is circa 1820-1835. Awesome. Thanks for checking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted April 16, 2021 Share Posted April 16, 2021 The Armitages started adding pritchell holes in about 1830. If the hole in yours is punched (which you can tell by the swelling around the hole on the underside), that moves your date range to 1830-1835. If it is drilled (no swelling, and possibly with drill marks on the inside of the hole), that means it's probably from 1820-1830 and was retrofitted later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefLittleBair Posted May 12, 2021 Author Share Posted May 12, 2021 Were mouse holes with this logo made before 1820? I was cleaning the rust off with a wire wheel to prepare for a paste wax finish, and I uncovered where someone used a punch to stamp what appears to be "1815" on the side right above the quarter hundred weight and pound markings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 A factory marking would have used actual number stamps, not a chisel. This was probably added later by an owner for reasons of their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 Which is why he's trying to correlate the Factory logo date and see if that's a possible user added date; or a bogus one. My Mouse Hole Forge book is at home, anybody? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 From 1780-1795, they just used "MOUSEHOLE". From 1795-1820, they used "C&A MOUSEHOLE". After 1820, they began adding "ARMITAGE" to the stamp, where it stayed in one form or another until the 20th century. So, since the stamp contains "ARMITAGE", it's post-1820, and the 1815 "date" is bogus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelonian Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 Maybe it says "1845"? The one kind of looks like a four to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefLittleBair Posted May 12, 2021 Author Share Posted May 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, Chelonian said: Maybe it says "1845"? The one kind of looks like a four to me. I'll have to look again when I get home, but I bet you're right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 Certainly could be. If so, that would mean that there's a "HENRY" missing above the "ARMITAGE" (either worn out, ground off, or never stamped for some reason). That stamp was used from 1835 to 1854. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 Re Owner Stamping: I've stamped my anvils to provide ownership proof, just in case. Not telling where or what the stamp is on an open forum... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefLittleBair Posted May 14, 2021 Author Share Posted May 14, 2021 I've looked and looked, different angles with a light and used chalk and rubbed with a pencil and paper, but I still can't make out anything besides 1815. Guessing its supposed to say 1845 or maybe even 1875. There is definitely faint remains of stamping about the armitage mousehole which I assumed was MH, but it could be HENRY. Not sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 Send it to the FBI crime lab and see if the techs who recover burned-off serial numbers from guns can make anything of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 It's a pretty easy thing to do John. Shine up the location and acid etch. The steel compressed by the stamp etches a lighter color. Give it a try, its a great way to wow the new guys. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 That's how the FBI and other LEO labs do it. I have tried it and it works for areas that have been ground/filed off but not something that has been hammered on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefLittleBair Posted May 15, 2021 Author Share Posted May 15, 2021 What sort or acid should I use? I have some ferric chloride I use for etching Damascus and wrought. Or cleaning vinegar with more set time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 15, 2021 Share Posted May 15, 2021 I don't recall, hydrochloric I think. You can buy small bottles of muriatic. Ferric chloride might / should work. I don't know about vinegar though, maybe. The people describing the process weren't going to wait a day or two to ID a firearm or such. Sulfuric might work, you could pipette a little out of a car battery. No, that won't work car batteries are all gel packs now aren't they? Hammering would eliminate the density gradient that made acid etch differently. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.