New to the game

[Horseman1]

23 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Exactly; it looks like someone mixed up a blown burner with a naturally aspirated one---sort of like trying to build a car engine mixing up plans for diesel and gas engines.

If you can retrofit it to have the sizes and locations of a T burner then it is a T burner and is known to work and instructions for Tuning it are already on this site!  Did you read the "READ THIS FIRST" thread that explains how to efficiently search for info on this massive and twisty website?

Please remember that we want folks to succeed in getting into blacksmithing; but we won't be bottle feeding them.  (I'd worry if you were safe with smithing if you need too much help with the basics that have already been covered here many many times. I had a friend die from making a stupid mistake and he was an experienced smith and knew better!)

GIGO is a major factor on the net, the more and better information you can provide when asking a question the more likely the result will actually apply to your situation.

I'm really trying to learn the craft here. I thought asking for help here would be wise considering the number of people on here looking to help each other. I didn't realize that I couldn't ask questions before researching. I'm not looking to be spoon fed or bottle fed. I jumped in over my head like so many people do and now I'm asking questions and I'm doing my research.

Honestly, since I've only been on this forum for less than 24 hours and I asked my questions within the first 3min maybe cut a new guy a bit of slack. Or not, that's up to you, but assuming I'm here for the easy answer or quick fix or whatever you think I'm here for and responding to my questions like a xxxxxxx only makes you look bad.

I haven't much liked how you've approached me here and I've tried keeping my cool, so my apologies for if this offends you, I'm just trying to let you know how your approach was received.

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning, Phil

1/16"=.0625". That is way too large, Mig welding tips are about .025" to .035" and they screw 'into' something, quite often 1/4-20 thread. I suggested that you get a Hair Dryer so you can wave it toward the mouth of your "T" and add some air to your VERY rich mixture. What your jet is, is a cap that goes over the pipe nipple you are using and it also blocks the air flow. Get rid of it and thread a bushing to go inside your pipe nipple, screw the mig tip into the bushing. The speed of the propane coming out the jet, will naturally draw air from the opening in the "T". You have to play with Jet configuration, Air configuration as well as any other configuration. You will want to close off one end of your Forge with fire-brick (make it so you can adjust it) and make the opening on the other end adjustable with pieces of fire brick. Leave your firebox alone and work on making "A" burner work. you probably should start with a Frosty design, because you then have a VERY knowledgeable person that can answer your questions.

The journey is beginning. Make notes in a scribbler so you can go back at any step. Never make 2 changes at one time, only ever 1 change.

You put your right foot in, You take your right foot out....................and you turn yourself around. That's what it's all about!!

Neil

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Yep... 1/16 or 0.0625 orifice is way too large. That is the size we use in our burners for the propane fired Kiln which is 100 times or so bigger than a forge.  When we built our 340 cubic inch propane forge the burner had a 0.0625 orifice which gave us the same result you are having. With some experimenting using different size orifices, I settled with a 0.0360 one that works very well. I would say with your current size forge you will have to go smaller than that or increase the size of the forge.

[Horseman1]

22 hours ago, swedefiddle said:

1/16"=.0625". That is way too large, Mig welding tips are about .025" to .035" and they screw 'into' something, quite often 1/4-20 thread.

The journey is beginning. Make notes in a scribbler so you can go back at any step. Never make 2 changes at one time, only ever 1 change.

You put your right foot in, You take your right foot out....................and you turn yourself around. That's what it's all about!!

Thanks Neil! I'm going to give rebuilding the T portion a try tomorrow. The maker drilled a hole through the T, put the pipe through and welded it, so I'll start that part from scratch. Shouldn't be too difficult.

21 hours ago, Irondragon ForgeClay Works said:

Yep... 1/16 or 0.0625 orifice is way too large. That is the size we use in our burners for the propane fired Kiln which is 100 times or so bigger than a forge.  When we built our 340 cubic inch propane forge the burner had a 0.0625 orifice which gave us the same result you are having. With some experimenting using different size orifices, I settled with a 0.0360 one that works very well. I would say with your current size forge you will have to go smaller than that or increase the size of the forge.

Huge difference, wow. Well I guess I'll be rebuilding the T portion seeing as the builder welded the pipe to the top of the T. All part of the fun.

Thanks for the info.

Phil

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

You're welcome. I couldn't help but notice some of your posts with quotes have been edited by a mod. I suggest reading this for an explanation. BTW, you only have 30 min in which to edit your posts.

The quote feature

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning, Phil

Please don't bite the hand that is trying to help you. Your story is not new and it happens here too frequently. The knowledgeable folks here sometimes get a bit short with answering the same questions again and again. Please don't get frantic. What you purchased is not ideal, but it is an excellent example of how NOT to build a Burner. Nothing is wasted, Look at the positive side. There is a saying "You can tell how long someone has been a Blacksmith by looking at their Scrap Pile". That Scrap Pile is a huge world of knowledge, lessons of things that DON'T WORK. Be proud of your Scrap Pile!! Sometimes you can use a piece of your Treasure Trove to fix something else, completely unrelated, MORE LEARNING!!! In the negatives there are more positives than negative!!

Neil

[ThomasPowers]

It's been an uphill battle trying to help you; how many times did we have to ask what size the orifice was to get an answer?  If you are new to something and have a problem it's best to show the entire system and give as much data as possible to the folks who know more; as what you think is the problem may not be the problem.  Not only here but in life in general---I sure have run into that a lot in my life; everything from car repair to being diagnosed by a Dr.

Perhaps it's time to gafiate again.

[Frosty]

A couple things here. Phil we aren't interested in spoon feeding you anything but we MUST have enough information to provide useful answers. Being brand new to any craft means YOU need to do the work. If the people ask you for clarification YOU need to provide it or we're not likely to answer at all. I'm not going to guess, I'm here to HELP folks IF I CAN.

Not having a little basic information sets you up for a REALLY common trap and that is believing people who don't really know what they're talking about. I'm going to do a little YELLING here, it's not at you Phil so don't take it as such.

Guys. STOP ADVISING PEOPLE TO USE REFRACTORY CEMENT!!  Refractory CEMENT or MORTAR is completely unsuitable as a forge liner! It doesn't work, never has, and never will! If you don't know this then you shouldn't be giving advice, you are doing more DAMAGE than good.

Without naming names, I've called you on this directly more than once and you persist. Either you don't care or can't be bothered to get it right. You are NOT helping!

End rant. 

Phil: That burner is unsalvageable and a perfect example of not having the knowledge to recognize a workable product before buying. I'm not even going into what's wrong with it, I don't see anything right. No fooling, it's so bad I don't see anything good at all.

That isn't a criticism, nobody is born knowing this or any stuff. Yes?

There is another current thread regarding building 1/2" T burners and a 2 brick forge. A forge with 170cu/in +/- wants a 1/2" T burner. If you have access to a drill press and basic shop skills a T burner is easy. I designed it as an effective burner requiring minimum shop skills ad equipment. There is a change of note regarding the bras fittings to mount the mig contact tip, the fittings I specified are getting REALLY hard to find with an ID that can be tapped. Teanylittlemetalguy's burner build video and instructions address this. I recommend you take a look. His T burners are SCREAMING HOT. I know I've worked in his forge many times. 

Regarding your forge. It's okay, you'll build other forges as your skill sets grow and you discover what you need and like. This is personal, we all have preferences and build to meet them. Anybody who's been this a while has old forges collecting dust around the shop.

The biggest beginner mistake is making them too large. Happily this isn't something you've done, you have a nice size forge. Well done! We'll help you build your next forge to be more efficient and effective but for now let's make this one SAFE and effective.

Exposed ceramic wool refractory blanket is a breath hazard, especially after it's been heated above red. The fibers break loose and drift in your breathable. Once in your lungs they pincushion your alveoli, the little sacks in your lungs that exchange oxygen and CO2 in your bloodstream when you breath. It can cause lung diseases similar to mesothelioma, silicosis, etc.

There are two ways we encapsulate Kaowool, First is by rigidizing it, this is spritzing it with fumed silica mixed with water, there are detailed instructions in the Forges 101 section a search will take you there. 

The second is applying a REFRACTORY flame face / inner liner. The current consensus as "best" product is "Kastolite 30 li" commonly called KOL and can be bought in reasonable quantities from the Iforgeiron store, there's a link at the top of the page. 

KOL is a castable, 3,000f., water setting, high alumina, bubble refractory. Alumina makes it less susceptible to forge welding fluxes. water setting means you mix it with water and it sets and cures like portland cement concrete. It does NOT dry, it absorbs water on a molecular scale. Do NOT use portland cement in a forge EVER, it's not only unsuitable its flat out dangerous. KOL just works, sets and cures like concrete, please don't confuse the two.

Spritz the ceramic blanket with clean water BEFORE applying either rigidizer or refractory so it'll bond properly. This is what folk are talking about when we say butter first, it's a masonry craft term. 

I like about 1/2" on the floor and 3/8" or less on the sides and roof but a forge your size can get away with less, it won't take the physical abuse a larger forge WILL get. 

Another trick that'll help is turn your forge on it's side. With the burner on top exhaust gasses exiting the forge openings will be inhaled by the burner and cause serious and DANGEROUS problems. You also don't want the flame directly on the work this isn't an efficient way to heat the steel. I'll explain regenerative furnaces (forges) later when it won't confuse you. It's not important info right now IF you'll just take my word for it.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Horseman1]

Frosty,

Thank you so much for all of that advice! I have noticed that many or most of the smiths in here defer to you on many things so I will be sure to take your word on all the safety issues you described. I am currently at the hardware store picking up parts for my new burner and when I think I'm done I'll send you a picture to see what more advice you may have for me.

Thanks again,

Phil

[Hawkbox]

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

The biggest beginner mistake is making them too large.

Yo. 

[ThomasPowers]

I recently found a gas forge shell at the scrapyard; pointed it out to a new smith and let him buy it. I did suggest he cut it in half and make two forges, although he could mount a center wall and make a double forge so people could work from both ends...it never even got lined and after seeing the forge burner close to it; it was just as well. (Truncation, kaowool + other stuff and Frosty T burner(s) are in it's future.  Diameter wasn't bad just the length.)

[Horseman1]

Here is the new burner that I built following Frosty's guidance. My mix tube is 4" x 1/2" at the 8:1 ratio and my mig tip is a 0.024 which was the smallest I found at the hardware store. Here are two pictures, one of the burner itself and the other of the flames it's producing from propane at 5psi. I'm sure I probably have a bit of tuning to do.

What do y'all think? 

[Mikey98118]

The exit from the two larger air entrances dumping down into the central air exit is well rounded on the recommended "T" pipe fittings; that area serves a a miniature funnel shape; swirling incoming air. The best you can do to make up for this lack, is to bevel the insides of your threaded reducer fitting, and the end of your pipe. Yhis isn't as good as the right fitting would be, but it's better than nothing.

[Horseman1]

So You're saying that I should smooth out all of the air intake threads as well as the area that leads to the reducer and mixing tube? I already beveled the edge of the reducer and mixing tube.

[Mikey98118]

No; I said nothing about the air intake threads; that's a different conversation with other people.

[Frosty]

NO. Mike's suggestion is to smooth the stepped diameter reduction of the bushing reducer to make a more uniform conic intake bell. 

Removing the threads from the intake ports had a negative effect when I tried it tinkering the T burner into a useful device.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Horseman1]

Okay, so here I am again! 

I've changed the length of mix tube, done a little fine tuning of the orifice, tapered the inside of the mix tube so that there is a smoother transition between all the parts down from the T. 

The mix here are some pictures of what I'm working with now. The flame shown is while running my propane at 5, 8, then 10psi.

I feel like I'm close, but please tell me what y'all think.

[Frosty]

Looking better. You REALLY need to be tuning it IN the forge. The back pressure generated by firing the burner into the forge WILL effect the flame and you'll have to tune it again. Might as well tune in the forge fro the start, you won't have to duplicate the process. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Horseman1]

Alright. Good to know. I'll now get my forge rebuilt correctly and then get to tuning the burner in the forge.

Thank you sir

[Horseman1]

I'm getting really frustrated with this whole process of building my own forge. I've built this setup bit by bit over the last few months, but from what I've been told by so many on this forum is that my setup is not so good. I'm honestly to the point of throwing in the towel and buying a forge, however, I'm here to learn the craft as a whole and not just give up when it gets hard. I've put so much time into this setup already I don't want to give up on it yet.

I am getting so many variable opinions of what I should or need to do and I don't know which direction to go with this forge. I have put so much time and energy into building a 1/2" dia. Frosty burner with Frosty's guidance, and a forge that doesn't seem to be usable. If anyone could tell me or direct me to the plans of how I can change what I've got to make it workable and efficient I am all ears.

[MT Hammer]

What we're getting from you is that you don't want to spend the time to do the research. But yet, you want the experts here to spend their time to tell you exactly, step-by-step, what to do and how to do it.

I myself am just a beginner, so I can't help you. I've been in the same boat, trying to wade through the 64 pages of the Forges 101 thread, and the 96 pages of Burners 101.  But you gotta do it, and you gotta put in the time. The impatience of looking for the quick and easy answer is what got you to this point. The best way out is to slow down, read through all the info presented here. All the answers are here, multiple times, over and over (which can be hard to get through).

Have you read the Consolidated Notes For New Forge Builders? That's a concise read, and give a good overview. Then dive into the 101 threads.

[Mikey98118]

Every photo I see shows a MIG tip that has never been trimmed back as Frosty advised. Every picture shows a MIG tip that is out of axial alignment with the mixing tube. And every flame photo shows a flame that is predictably canted off center. The photos can't show that they are suffering from these flaws--but I can.

[Frosty]

Not quite MT, Horseman's running into a common problem with trying to trouble shoot or learn something new on a social media platform. He is getting suggestions from so many people, many of which have little if any expertise to pass along, the noise to signal ratio is just confusing him. 

I'm not going to fault anybody for trying to help others but good information gets so buried by wild guesses and often pure nonsense, those of us who DO know what we're talking about can't punch a signal through the noise. Once a new guy has enough knowledge under their belts they can filter the good from the bad, they can ignore the BS. Until then they're vulnerable to the jabbering mob.

MT: I do NOT want to offend you but anybody who prefaces a suggestion with something like, "I'm just a beginner so I can't help you," then goes on to make suggestions is part of the confusing noise. Everybody wants to help and when you figure something out you want to share. I get it and I don't fault you, I find myself doing it and know how hard it is to stay off the air. 

We're getting to that Mike, Horseman and I have been trouble shooting the burner in PM, I suggested we bring it back to the public forum so others can learn along with. Your observation is as always a bingo and our next step, once he gets the jet trimmed/tuned. Probably do it as the final adjustment. Mig tips can be a PITA to keep straight when trimming.

I'm going to leave it to Horseman to decide whether to continue on the open forum or return to PM, I'd like to include you as well if it's okay. This is Horseman's thread, his call. 

Horseman, buddy. Rain off a duck, okay? As Mike has said the jet is slightly out of alignment as can be seen by the flame leaning on one side of the outlet nozzle. Watch that cue as we trim the jet back, make sense? The nice thing about a T is the large inlet ports they allow us to reach in with a small screw driver or similar lever and GENTLY bend the mig tip straight. 

I prefer to wait until the jet position is neutral or SLIGHTLY reducing before correcting alignment when it's this close, there's always a chance of breaking it. Of course if it does break you can trim the new mig tip to the tuned length plus a TINY BIT for final tuning and replace it. Easy peasy. I have several pre-tuned mig tips in my burner travel kit.

Make sense Horseman? We'll get to the forge once you have a handle on the burner. The forge is easy, sure you made a few mistakes but they're no big deal. Rain off a duck Brother.

Please feel free to do some looking in Forges 101 or the stickies and pick a proven design and get started. Pay attention to what kind of bricks, or other insulating refractories are used. Flame face is really important to. Bear in mind the noise to signal ratio, so don't let things get you down. ONE plan, mixing and matching is for later in your skills sets.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

4 hours ago, Frosty said:

and GENTLY bend the MIG tip straight. 

Just so; the answer to this problem can be that simple. I like simple

[Horseman1]

So I just made the knife shown in the picture bellow and was wondering if anyone had suggestions on what I should use as a finish coat on the handle? 

I was thinking maybe bee's wax or linseed oil. I don't really want to do a poly coat though.