New to the game

[Horseman1]

I have built a gas forge and am having issues with cold spots in it. I've adjusted the fuel to air by regulating the fuel to between 1-5psi and lifted and dropped the height of my burner. I'm still not able to get the burner to jet in the center. The fuel seems to ignite toward the edge of the door. I'm thinking that I need more interior space in the forge to allow more space for the fuel to burn properly.

Please help me solve this puzzle as I'd really like to get on my way with trying this craft.

Sincerely,

Phil

[swedefiddle]

Happy New Year Phil,

It is difficult to help or make suggestions without knowing what kind of FrankenForge you have. Does it have a fan/blower? Have you tried helping it with extra air? Sometimes an old Hair Dryer is all the help you need. Is the jet absolutely in the center? Close doesn't count!! What are you using for fuel? Propane? Map Gas? Natural Gas? Butane?

I am not trying to be a jerk, just that we need more info!!

Welcome to this wurld, there is a Journey, but there isn't a destination!!

Neil

[twigg]

Just to add to swedefiddle's respone, pictures are very helpful here.

[Horseman1]

Thanks to both of you for your responses. To answer some of your questions Swedefiddle, I am using propane as fuel, my burner is in the exact center. And though I have thought about doing a forced air system using a blow-dryer I have yet to set that up. 

I'm going to make some modifications tomorrow morning to see what happens, but will get some pictures for you tomorrow.

Thanks again,

Phil 

[ThomasPowers]

The issue is probably with your burner: since you have provided so much information on it we can say twiddle this, align that and increase the size of the other thing.

A picture of what type of burner you are using and how it's mounted in the forge would help greatly!  (Note that the main issue about adding pictures to your post is that they may need to be resized down as there is a size limit for the files.  I have an old cell phone that resizes pictures when I send them to my email where I can save them to my laptop that negates this issue though my pics are low resolution...)

[Hawkbox]

I have my phone automatically upload them to dropbox and then I drag and drop them into the forum if that helps Horseman.  You can see the pictures in the post I made yesterday, I'm very curious to see what you came up with as I'm already in the build another one with the things I learned the first time in mind.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Horseman, glad to have you. If you put your general location in the header you'll have a chance of hooking up with members living within visiting distance.

I'm afraid there isn't much we can do for you with so little information from you. The suggestions so far are just guesses based on nothing.  Your question is like me saying, "there's something wrong with my car." and expecting useful help. 

The only useful suggestions I CAN make are. Post some pics. Describe the burner IN DETAIL. Who's plans did you follow and what has that person suggested. 

Most of us are here to help folk but we have to have SOMETHING to go on.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Horseman1]

I'm currently located in Ukiah, California. Here is a picture of my forge. I'm currently running propane at 2psi.

[ThomasPowers]

Now we are getting somewhere---what size is the orifice?

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

12 hours ago, Horseman1 said:

I'm going to make some modifications

Only make one modification at a time, that way you will know what the change did. Also keep a note book about the changes. Changing too many things at a time usually makes things worse. Also knowing where in the world you are located will help, hence the suggestion to edit your profile to show it so you get more accurate answers. I know that propane differs from country to country and continent's. You posted while I was typing, we won't remember your location once leaving that post.

 

2 minutes ago, Horseman1 said:

currently located in Ukiah, California.

 

[Horseman1]

It is not closed off on either side. When I close off one side the burner begins to chug and I get fireballs out the door. If I lower the burner down a half inch it sputters and gurgles like flames are backing up the burner. The steel doesn't get any hotter than a full orange color and that takes about 20min or so.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

From the pictures of the dragons breath it looks to me the gas jet orifice is too large. What did you use for an orifice and how far into the T is it located? I'm pretty sure Frosty or Mikey will give better answers than I.

[ThomasPowers]

(Does it have an orifice?  Necessary for a Naturally Aspirated burner, not needed so much for a blown burner.

[Horseman1]

6 hours ago, Irondragon ForgeClay Works said:

Only make one modification at a time,

I completely understand the value of the process of elimination and the scientific method of one variable change at a time. Thank you for the input. I have updated my profile a bit so maybe that will help.

Edited January 13, 2021 by Mod30
Trim quote.

[Horseman1]

6 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Now we are getting somewhere---what size is the orifice?

The opening is roughly 5.5"x3.5" and 9" deep.

From what I've been reading, my burner appears to be to big for my forge size. I'm only at 173in³ and this burner from what I've been reading should be good to hear at least 300in³

6 hours ago, Irondragon ForgeClay Works said:

From the pictures of the dragons breath it looks to me the gas jet orifice is too large. What did you use for an orifice and how far into the T is it located? I'm pretty sure Frosty or Mikey will give better answers than I.

 

4 hours ago, Horseman1 said:

The opening is roughly 5.5"x3.5" and 9" deep.

From what I've been reading, my burner appears to be to big for my forge size. I'm only at 173in³ and this burner from what I've been reading should be good to hear at least 300in³

The hole in the jet is 1/16" and all the openings are threaded. Should I remove the threads to reduce drag/ turbulence?

 

[Horseman1]

6 hours ago, Frosty said:

Welcome aboard Horseman, glad to have you. If you put your general location in the header you'll have a chance of hooking up with members living within visiting distance.

Hi Frosty,

So I'm gathering that there is allot more to this than I originally thought. Hahaha! 

The cu in of my forge is approx. 173in³. The hole for the jet is 1/16". All the air ports and the burner flair are threaded. Do you think I should remove the threads to decrease drag/air turbulence?

Here are some pictures that might help.

 

 

[Welshj]

Well, horseman- I'm going to leave the burner to the guys that are the experts on them... the one who designed the style you're using- you've already met. As in the FROSTY "T" burner.

I'm going to comment on your choice of forge build. 

You've seemingly combined two different styles of build into one. Lol... most people go with fire brick, or kaowool ceramic wool. You've combined both.

The firebrick will work. Just be aware that its going to be costly to run, as you're going to spend more time heating the forge to temp than heating steel. Firebricks like that are less insulating, more heat sink. You may never get to forge welding temps with that.

Ceramic wool is much more of an insulator. Two inches of 8# ceramic wool will keep a forge shell pretty cool, while keeping the inside nice & hot.

However- there's two concerns.

1. Eventually, used as is- uncoated and raw... it'll kill you. It needs to be coated in a refractory cement.

2. It won't last long... uncoated and protected- in flame it will slowly degrade and come apart releasing microfibers that get released into the air you're breathing... where they become embedded in your lungs and mucas linings in your throat & sinuses.

The killing you part.

There's alot of information on the forumn here on refractories. Glenn actually sells some on here.

Google kasto-lite, satanite, mizzou then look up plistix.

You could very well use the existing fire brick make it a little bigger, and then line it with 2" of wool, then rigidize and coat it with refractory cement... and be good to go once you sort out your burner.

My forge as a poor example of coated lining. After-

And before-

[ThomasPowers]

In talking about a gas forge; the orifice always refers to the hole that the gas come out of in the burner.  Where did you get that design? The orifice is too large and too deep into the T.  PLEASE read the design instructions on this site for a Frosty T burner and follow them *exactly*.  Messing with a known good design is for folks who want to tinker rather than folks who want to FORGE!  Designing your own burner is great IF you know how to design burners and are willing to spend the time and money tinkering with them.  I've been using a gas forge for over 20 years now and have ALWAYS gone with a proven design as I'm interested in the forging!

[Horseman1]

I actually bought this burner off Amazon a while back. I didn't build it or tinker with anyone's design, it came as is. I'm here to ask questions and to learn from people who know the craft far better than myself not to step on anyone's d***. I'm absolutely here for the learning opportunity to become more proficient in forging and blacksmithing as a whole.

2 hours ago, Welshj said:

Well, horseman- I'm going to leave the burner to the guys that are the experts on them... the one who designed the style you're using- you've already met. As in the FROSTY "T" burner.

That is a way nicer setup than what I'm working with.

So with the burner I have I'm hearing from people that my orifice is too big and too deep in the T. What would your recommendation be? Make my forge bigger with thicker ceramic wool and refractory cement, or scrap what I've got and build something else, or just buy one that's already dialed in?

Edited January 13, 2021 by Mod30
Remove excessive quote.

[ThomasPowers]

Making the forge larger has NOTHING to do with the location of the orifice in the plumbing T.  The Orifice size and location is what controls how much air gets entrained and mixed for the burn.  Please read the Frosty T instructions as that seems like what the people who sold this to you were working from only messing it up with mods.

Are they still selling these poorly designed burners on Amazon?

[Welshj]

 

"I'm absolutely here for the learning opportunity to become more proficient in forging and blacksmithing as a whole."

Then you've come to the right place. There's alot of very knowledgeable people on here.

You've gotta understand that there's many who just come asking the same questions repeatedly... versus researching a bit, or any. They just want the quick fix answer.

Not that you have- but you can then see why some responses seem... snippy.??

The guys who stick to it, and come back with a response like yours above- then recover, get it figured out, and move on to doing some awesome stuff.

You said it best when you said- "So I'm gathering that there is allot more to this than I originally thought. Hahaha!"

there is. But you're alot closer to the fix than you think. Whoever you got that burner from on amazon- failed you I think.

I used a pipe cap welded into a pipe- with a 1/16" gas orifice for my burner. But I'm running a forced air setup on a 1" mix tube. Still a burner- but apples to oranges in design and function.

That won't work well in a venturi style t burner like yours. As you've found out.

Check out frosty's t burner design here. And you'll see what I mean.

 

[Horseman1]

23 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Making the forge larger has NOTHING to do with the location of the orifice in the plumbing T.  The Orifice size and location is what controls how much air gets entrained and mixed for the burn.  Please read the Frosty T instructions as that seems like what the people who sold this to you were working from only messing it up with mods.

Are they still selling these poorly designed burners on Amazon?

I realize that the size of the forge has nothing to do with orifice placement in the T. I was thinking that the possibility of there being too much pressure in the forge because of how small it is might have something to do with why it's burning the way it is.

What I'm hearing you say is that if I use the pdf plans for the burner that Frosty put out in the forum I can make the necessary modifications and my burner will fire correctly and I shouldn't need to change my forge size any. Is that what you're saying?

I have no idea if these burners are still being sold on Amazon. I can see if it's still in my purchase history and look into it.

23 hours ago, Welshj said:

 

"I'm absolutely here for the learning opportunity to become more proficient in forging and blacksmithing as a whole."

Then you've come to the right place. There's alot of very knowledgeable people on here.

You've gotta understand that there's many who just come asking the same questions repeatedly... versus researching a bit, or any. They just want the quick fix answer.

Not that you have- but you can then see why some responses seem... snippy.??

Thank you for the clarification about responses being "snippy" I realize that I am entirely new here and want to have the best experience I can, learn as much from those that know as I can and maybe someday contribute to helping someone else just starting out.

I am not a huge reader and learn more by doing, trial and error, and by watching and listening. This is as close as I can get to talking to a bunch of different professionals about my questions and possibly getting some of the best advice to set me on a solid path.

I totally jumped in over my head right off the bat and realized that as soon as my forge wouldn't heat steel. Hahaha. I'm now finding this forum to be extremely helpful. 

I actually found Frosty's pdf and printed it out about an hour ago. I'm going to pull apart my current burner and make the necessary modifications and see how it goes from there.

Thanks Welshj for pointing me in a good direction. 

[Welshj]

14 minutes ago, Horseman1 said:

I totally jumped in over my head right off the bat and realized that as soon as my forge wouldn't heat steel.

And you wouldn't be the first! Lol... I did the exact same thing. That forge in my picture above has since been through several revisions and tweaks... the first of which was to cut it in half and drop a burner. Per guidance from the guys here...

I've since just recently made my first hand hammered "damascus" blade. Leaps and bounds from my barely burning slightly dark reddish first attempts.

I'd much rather see you as a fellow smith- get frustrated, get answers, and figure it out... and be safely doing it for years to come. 'Cause then I get to see your results, and inspirations.

[Horseman1]

Right on! That's the kind of attitude I was hoping to find here. Thanks again for reaching out. Going to figure out how to get to the hardware store before they close so I can maybe get this thing going before I go to bed tonight.

Edited January 13, 2021 by Mod30
Remove excessive quotes.

[ThomasPowers]

Exactly; it looks like someone mixed up a blown burner with a naturally aspirated one---sort of like trying to build a car engine mixing up plans for diesel and gas engines.

If you can retrofit it to have the sizes and locations of a T burner then it is a T burner and is known to work and instructions for Tuning it are already on this site!  Did you read the "READ THIS FIRST" thread that explains how to efficiently search for info on this massive and twisty website?

Please remember that we want folks to succeed in getting into blacksmithing; but we won't be bottle feeding them.  (I'd worry if you were safe with smithing if you need too much help with the basics that have already been covered here many many times. I had a friend die from making a stupid mistake and he was an experienced smith and knew better!)

GIGO is a major factor on the net, the more and better information you can provide when asking a question the more likely the result will actually apply to your situation.