Coal Formation

[tanglediver]

The story I always got is that coal formation takes umpteen millenia in the earth to happen. It occurs in swampy, boggy, marshy, muddy, goo mess. And no one (that I'm aware of) has ever seen it actually happening.

Is this the case? 

 

 

[SLAG]

Folks,

For a scientific explanation of how coal forms, please consult, Wikipedia at,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal

Especially read the section entitled  "formation".

Peat bed depositions have been found in sedimentary beds as young as ten thousand years. Beginning the formation  of coal.

SLAG.

[ThomasPowers]

Peat => Lignite => Sub Bituminous coal => Bituminous Coal => Anthracite

Goes on all the time and takes millions of years; people generally are not present several miles down in the earth's crust though.  We have examples that have made it to the surface of every stage and lots of transition examples too.

Unfortunately I can't watch the video while working here in the Earth and Environmental Sciences department in the Mineral Science and Engineering building.  Does it discuss the radioactivity of coal and it's dating thereby?

[Steve Sells]

I like that video, its a cool report, I understand the relationship of floods forming a coal bed, but they never actually talked about the great flood, or did I miss that?  And WIkipedia is terrible for a reference because any 12 yr old can post stuff there.  For those people that will never actually watch this video  I will summarize:  its about a PhD thesis on coal formation.

[Selph]

Wikipedia isn't that bad of a reference. It's great as a first pass and a place to get additional sources. Also, on any page that sees a lot of disinformation or editing from large numbers of non-experts (generally politically controversial topics), they tend to lock it down. Not everyone can edit it, and you need a certain amount of positive work within Wikipedia itself to attempt a change.

[Steve Sells]

JPH and I have both had information we posted removed by wiki 'experts' as being non relevant,  and ours were replaced by similar factual statements but were in links to ABS members sites.  the info in question was on pattern welded steels, so I have personal experience of Wiki editing things for political reasons, not factual

[Nobody Special]

The interviewer hints that it might be related to Noah's flood towards the beginning, and the interviewee says it specifically a little after 18 painful minutes in.  I think he's taking a few facts, and stretching his assumptions too far; it's not well supported.

He basically uses two supporting elements, a look at a coal bed in Kentucky and the more recent eruption of St Helens to say that there seems to be evidence that coal could originate from peat created by decaying bark from floating log masses, buried by sediment.  This doesn't seem too farfetched, and he supports it with talking about dives to look at precursors at the bottom of Spirit Lake, and about coal stratification at the one location that didn't seem consistent with a swamp.  No discussion of carbon dating, but a little bit of talk about tree rings.  He also tries to tie in petrification in anaerobic conditions, but he doesn't really connect it to evidence of coal formation.

But then he says that they are able to create a "coal-like substance" in a very short period in a laboratory by applying heat and pressue. Okay, he's using pyrolysis to reduce biomass to carbon...which is not the same thing as coal. He starts speculating about worldwide log jams explaining the world's coal formations, and explains that coal formation could occur in very short times under the right conditions.  Of course he's saying that.  If you're arguing that the world is less than 6500 years old, and coal was formed by the Great Flood, then how can you have coal formation that takes millions of years to form, the conventional model being that even lignite stems from the Tertiary Period ending two and a half million years ago? He says that the bark would then have been buried by silica and other minerals in sea beds.

He also, painfully talks about coal as an antiseptic process preventing decomposition, even as he mentions heat formed by layers of the bark being a crucial part of the heat needed for his supposed rapid coal. He compares it to heat generated by hay bales...and in both cases, that heat is generated by fermentation.  Fermentation is a necessary part of the process, it breaks down the lignite and cellulose among other things.

 

I don't disagree that Wikipedia can be problematic, but the same problems that prevail - misinformation, inequitable vetting, etc are prevalent in many other sources of information, news articles, blogs, books, and even honest to God paper encyclopedias.  At least on Wikipedia the disputes are generally recorded and the dispute open to the public-ish, if you go looking for it. It's not worse than a lot of others as a place to get started. There's a nice discussion on coalification put out by the Bureau of Mines in the late 70s. Found a copy on the CDC website of all places. https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/mining/UserFiles/works/pdfs/ri8317.pdf 

The wikiverse ain't perfect, but it's better than a random apologist for the Flood on Youtube. "Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig; es ist nicht einmal falsch!"

 

[Steve Sells]

I took much of what he said as a sort of blog based on his Doctoral Thesis, which he stated a few times during this presentation, I didnt expect the entire thesis to be presented here just highlights for the entertainment value of the video, its another theory of how coal can form, and I guess I missed the Noah statement. I was looking for it due to the title of the video buty was also on my first coffee of the day

[pnut]

6 hours ago, Nobody Special said:

The interviewer hints that it might be related to Noah's flood towards the beginning, and the interviewee says it specifically a little after 18 painful minutes in.  I think he's taking a few facts, and stretching his assumptions too far; it's not well supported.

I didn't make it any farther than the first intimation.

Pnut

[Frosty]

While interesting as one mechanism for collecting large deposits of organics, it assumed all coal beds are alike. deep fresh water isn't antiseptic, preventing decomp. It's ANAEROBIC, meaning microorganisms that exist away from oxygen. Hay generating heat in the barn is aerobic bacterial action and REQUIRES  moisture. Either he is woefully ignorant the kind of biology he's discussing or being less than honest.

If you'd like to visit I'll take you up to the local decommissioned coal mines where you can look at exposed bed on bed on bed, maybe hundreds deep. Some were clearly covered by flooding, others by slow sedimentation, some coal is so interspersed with minerals they're like dirty clay or sand. There are logs, roots, sticks, leaves, some obviously forest, most not so. There is other fossilization too, if you're lucky you can find insects and rare amphibians, shells and corals are there in different deeper beds.   

We could also go for a drive in fall when colors really make different species visible and I'll point out how different tree species prefer different elevations. Or if it's summer we can drive over Turnagain pass and watch the transition from spruce to hemlock to fir with the elevations.

Yellowstone is Yellow because it's largely ryolite  a mineral formed when enormous amounts of hot volcanic ash cools at the right rate quickly I believe. Maybe someone with the education can explain the process, I don't recall specifics and don't want to spend the time to dig out the right book.  Ash from major eruptions often just buries forests and the ash being porous allows water to filter through and petrify wood. Doesn't make coal as far as I know though. 

That's just to point out a couple inconsistencies in the discussion. The standing trees in the petrified forest are standing in volcanic ASH deposits, not lacustrine nor marine deposits. They are distinctly different formations even if of the same material. The rates of settling between water and air are significant and it shows. 

That  video was as interesting and convincing as any infomercial. 

Frosty The Lucky. 

[pnut]

It's unrelated but I just seen a PBS program about the formation of the scab lands in Washington state and the English channel from the rapid failure of glacial lakes. The flood thing made me think of it. 

Pnut

[George N. M.]

As a geologist I would not waste my time on anything with Dr. Steve Austin's name on it.  He is a creationist who believes in a young earth (less than 10,000 years old) and is the chair of the Geology Department of the Institute of Creation Research in Dallas, TX.  He has been active in promoting a Noah's Flood interpretation of the geology of the Grand Canyon.  I will not waste any of the time I have left on this earth on his brand of snake oil. 

[Steve Sells]

sad to hear I thought there might have been something to his flood/coal theory

[SLAG]

Mr. George N. M.,

Thanks you for the heads up on "Dr." S. Austin, I did vaguely recollect that he was a fundamentalist, media propagandist. But I was too occupied to look him up.

Creationists have had to bend over backward, and through all manner of contortions to try reconcile biblical passages with geology.  As far back as the first publications of Charles Lyell (1830-1833)  taught that geology was a matter of evolving change over millennia  (eons),  and not the creation of God about 5050 years ago. (calculated by Archbishop Samuel Wiberforce who calculated the sum of all the begats in the bible).

SLAG.

Written with apologies to Mr. S. sells.

I pity the poor snakes that died to manufacture Dr. Austen's snake oil.

[Frosty]

Thanks George, now I know where and how he got a phD. 

Parts are true enough Steve, but not an all inclusive biblical flood as the source of coal.  What's so very sad are the claims that science and faith are mutually exclusive.  

pnut: The Bretz floods and the Channeled Scablands are epic. I LOVE the Scablands and there are a few excellent books about them and the formation from the stranded beaches 2,000' above Missoula Montana to the enormous  marine canyon where the Columbia river enters the Pacific. Something like 90% of the Columbia River Gorge was cut in 2 weeks. 60+mph. Water was flowing 1,100' deep over Spokane Wa. The famous serpentine gravel hills SW of Spokane  are actually the exact same as ripples on a pond floor just scaled up a couple orders of magnitude.  The flow carried grapefruit size cobble like it was sand, the hills are VERY clean gravel, no sand even.

If you or anybody gets the chance to drive the country read, "Cataclysms on the Columbia" "Bretz's Floods" is another excellent read. Read them before you go and pick up one of the many excellent travel companion books about the country. I travel with "Roadside Geology" the state's Gazetteer and a "Milepost." at a minimum. don't forget maps! 

If you've driven through Eastern Wa, Idaho and "ho hummed" the tall, 300-400', steep sided flat topped hills everywhere as just hills. The crazy deep vertical walled canyons, weird holes in the desert bedrock horseshoe falls, etc. Read one of the books about the geology that made it, it brings the true meaning of awesome home. 

Frosty The Lucky. 

[SLAG]

Herr Frosty,

has just stated,  and I quote,

"What's so very sad are the claims that science and faith are mutually exclusive". 

Herr SLAG respectfully agrees, There are many scientists who HAVE religious faith. Please research some of the writings of Dr. Polkinhorn and others.

Regards,

SLAG

 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I have faith that science is the answer.

[SLAG]

Citizens,

The coalbeds that are ancient mostly hail back to the Carboniferous and Permian periods of geology.

At that time certain fungi could only digest cellulose molecules. The other main component of wood, namely lignin, was not available metabolically to those fungi. It remained in vast deposits

So that organic material piled up in enormous beds, and eventually became the various different coal varieties

But in more recent times,  (although ancient, hundreds of millions of years ago), certain fungi evolved that could break down lignins etc.

So less coal  formed, after that time

But anaerobic,  (no air),  conditions exclude all those fungi,  and the plant material has a chance to form peat beds, and also the other types of coal. All this by the action of great pressure of the overburden.

For example sudden flooding and the ensuing silt/mud deposits can bury the organic matter, and start the process.   as can volcanic depositions.

SLAG.

[George N. M.]

I will say that, personally, I have resolved any conflicts between science and faith.  To paraphrase Arthur C. Clarke, the universe is not only stranger than you imagine, it is stranger than you can imagine.

Frosty, there have been research showing that there are deep bed rock canyons below the Greenland ice cap.  Within the last week a paper has come out proposing that these are the result of glacial outburst floods when Greenland was partially free of ice.  Yes, the channeled scab lands are a very cool feature.  There are places in the Williamette Valley in Oregon where there are piles of large boulders that have their source in Canada and were transported there in icebergs that floated down in the Bretz floods and were stranded as the water backed up behind the coast ranges up the Williamette River valley.  The glacial outburst floods are an elegant explanation for many unusual features in eastern Washington.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Frosty]

Oh I do love a good glacial erratic! There is one not far off one of the highways in Eastern Wa. that's the size of a house resting on a small rocky hill that came from the Canadian Rockies. Evidently the block of ice stranded on the little hill as the flood subsided leaving a really BIG rock out in the middle of the desert.  

Once I had a clue about what I was looking at I started spending a lot of my vacation time roaming eastern Wa. and Idaho. It's the first time I've tasted FRESH cashews, right off a roadside stand in an orchard. Once we get the RV on the road in the lower 48 I wonder how much time I can get Deb to spend in the Scablands. Not much chance of getting her to hunt obsidian on 395 in eastern Cal, drive the road maybe but take a side road? 

We have a small erratic in one of our pastures about the size of a pickup truck cab, smoothly rounded granite with classic striations. We call it goat Rock, the goats loved it. I found it clearing the organic overburden with a D6. I was rolling it up like a giant jellyroll at a good clip and suddenly slammed to a stop, the dozer came off the ground. Briefly. It took a good 10 years for the dents in my shins to finally go away. Didn't quiver the boulder though, not a bit. 

We bought land on a lateral moraine as quake protection and to stay above spring flooding.  Last November's quake only  knocked a couple things off shelves and dumped a dresser upstairs. Gotta love solid hard ground with a really deep 70' water table.  

Frosty The Lucky. 

[George N. M.]

Dear Frosty,

There is a great obsidian site in central OR called Glass Buttes.  It is off US 20 about 72 miles east of Bend, OR and about 50 miles west of Burns, OR.  The access roads may be too rugged for an RV but I have collected black and mahogany obsidian cobbles in the road fill along US 20.  One turn off is located at 43*35'23.55"N, 120*04'01.71"W.  Almost all of the land is BLM and anyone can collect up to 250 pounds of obsidian per year.  I have only collected black and mahogany but there are apparently other colors and varieties in the area and some other interesting minerals.  Mercury ore was mined in the area in the 1950s.

If you get travelling in the lower 48 and get as far east as WY let me know.

GNM

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand." 

[Frosty]

Oh yeah, US 20 Bend to Burns is better than 395 for collecting obsidian. I like driving East late afternoon and West early to mid morning, having the sun at your back you can watch the obsidian glitter and flash, I'd stop for large flashes or good colors. It's not what I'd call a "good" technique for collecting but it's a good way to get a handle on the area quickly. 

There is Flame and Fire obsidian on the front butte as you drive in off the highway. Flame obsidian is flame colored: reds, oranges, yellows, where Fire obsidian is chatoyant like fire opal. None of the locals would tell me where to look for the fire obsidian except on the front butte. 

There is supposed to be a bed of clear green obsidian somewhere about 10-15 miles west of Burns in a gully that crosses 20. I should've just bought a block last time I was through but oh no I gotta collect my own. <sigh> Evidently it's a large bed it was pretty cheap in the rock shops. 

ON 395 there's a little spot called Sweet Water, I think named for the Cafe. A mile or so north there's a road with some impressive beds of snowflake and lots of mohogany. I collected a couple coffee cans of mohogany needles. The good needle exposures are in the road cuts in the mohogany beds. 

My first venture into those beds was in search of good knapping obsidian and while looking I stumbled onto an Indian obsidian quarry like a 30' diameter conversation pit under the trees. The rim was benched at a comfortable sitting height, there was a long established fire pit in the center and the obsidian was clean black, with a long flatish conchoidal fractures at a gentle tap. The bed of the pit was inches deep in flakes, old cores, hammer stones, worn antler, burnt bone in the fire pit. 

I visited that site every summer for three years I think, maybe longer. My folks were living on Lake Davis in Plumas County so driving 395 was as easy as turning left before I reached Reno. I'd spend a day driving  North to Lakeview Or. and spend the night then roll up to 20 and do some rock hounding. 

Good times, great memories.   

Deb and I will be announcing where we plan to go a couple days ahead while we're wandering. We both have lots of hands to shake on our bucket lists. Congratulations George I'll make a point of trying to stop in and annoy you and family if we can.  

Frosty The Lucky.