Does blacksmithing include arc welding or oxy-acetylene welding? ?

[JHCC]

Induction forges are okay for Late Antiquity, but not for Viking-era. 

[ThomasPowers]

Yes the vikings were much more deductive forgers.

[Marc1]

I was checking out some youtube posting about induction forges. Some seem very slow, others real fast, but unless you want to heat up only straight stock, the size of the induction coil seems to be the achilles heal of this thing ... not to mention the electricity bill. Try to fit a gate component or a scroll in that minute coil. I wonder if they make them bigger?

[ThomasPowers]

The people I know with them say it's surprisingly cheap on electricity as it's generally only on for seconds even to get to a welding heat.

They make their own coils too and so can customize them to the job.  As I don't have electricity to the shop they are not drool inducing for me.

[Shabumi]

2 hours ago, Marc1 said:

Not really. Tradition comes from the Latin 'trans' that means across, and 'dare' that means to give. Handing down to the next generation

Looks like you went a bit further back than I did. I only had a 30+ year old dictionary (unknown age as the cover and first 10 pages are missing, though it's been in my family since before I was born)to give me the root word, which it states as tradere. I googled tradere and got the definitions and other derived words from there. Now that I delved deeper I see you are correct.

 

[Marc1]

I can see how the dictionary has betrayed you

That flow chart is also a bit ambiguous.

Here is an explanation that seems more thorough

https://www.dailywritingtips.com/tradition-and-treason/

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

3 hours ago, George N. M. said:

That can lead to madness and finer and finer nit picking. 

You have that right. I belong to a "Traditional Muzzleloading" forum with many period re-enactors as members, sometimes the discussions devolve into that. We call those folks stitch counters.

[JHCC]

"I have no use for purists. Every hobby I know of has been ruined by them. They can't simply enjoy coins or stamps or model trains, they have to look down their noses at other hobbyists whose collections aren't as fine as theirs. Purists might serve a useful purpose if they also achieved excellence in something meaningful, but they almost never do. Almost always, they pick some piece of trivia to obsess over and feel superior to everyone else about their ultra-fastidiousness." -- Steven Dutch

[Marc1]

Ha ha ... "ultra-fastidiousness" a bit like a discriminating fussbudget ... 

Agree wholeheartedly. And I add that this persnickety over-delicate prunes, are always in the part time  armchair hobby section of the out of print magazines.   

Bottom line and seriously now, if at all possible ... smithing, metal work, forge, weld or bang together has just one purpose, and that is to make things, possibly beautiful to your eyes, and hopefully useful for someone else. . If beautiful to other people's eyes, that is a bonus. How you achieve that? Such is for you to know. If you decide to trade-ition it to someone of significance to you, goodonya. 

(We really need a bigger variety of emoticons)  

And I don't intend to denigrate or dismiss those in the re-enactment side of things. I have no knowledge in such area, and in my ignorance regard it to be more in the histrionic arena, for what I have not one single bone in my haphazardly befuddled body. 

[Anachronist58]

2 hours ago, Marc1 said:

in my ignorance

It is my knowledge of my own ignorance, wherein lies my greatest intellectual strength.

one of the more endeared-to-me quotes from a lexicographer, is that no completed dictionary* is capable of being truly complete and comprehensive. we must be as flexible as the heartbreaking evolution of language, as the irresistible mutation of usage renders to smithers, our generational (period) understanding of what is proper, therein.

Permit me then, to coin myself as a BlackWright: I have done the research back to Indo-European roots, as per my source*, so I invite all comers to quip, append, and/or, deconstruct.

For I smite, I wright, and it is Right.

Robert Cangrejo Quejarte De Sastre

[Marc1]

Well said.

One of the most destructive statements, repeated at nauseam about a divisive, even when imaginary foe, is "The science is settled, there is no more debate" 

This gormless statement assumes full and complete knowledge and discards any potential for error or future discovery and only highlights the limitations of the author. 

"Eppur si muove" ... yes I believe he did say that, mumbled in his beard. Or so i was told

If I am to be in a re-enactment I want to be the one that fires the cannon !! 

PS

Who is this Robert you speak of? 

He complains about a crab or about his taylor ? 

[Anachronist58]

A good friend, in his local dialect, calls me Roberto Don De Sastre desastre. Meanwhile, to disambiguate my self from other types of crab, I qualify my self as a  'crabby' crab, hence, a kvetch crab, hence, El Cangrejo Quejarte.

Best to mumble, to keep one's beard attached to one's neck?

Robert Taylor

[Marc1]

 

How do you like my improvised poetic license?

 

Endechas de Mastropiero:

Al quejarme del desastre

 

me recuerdo de aquel maestre

que jabato en su montura

se largo de Extremadura

 

Si el cangrejo está cocido

ya no hay pájaro en el nido

y si el sastre no se arrima

quien me ayuda con la rima? 

 

 

Mastropiero lays: When I complain about the disaster, I remember that master who, in his sadness, ran away from Extremadura. If the crab is cooked, there is no bird in the nest and if the tailor does not get close, who helps me with the rhyme?

[Frosty]

I like the discussion, lots of views to mull over. About the original question and a couple bits. How you join pieces doesn't matter, not really so long as you do NOT misrepresent your work. Send it to a pro welding shop for all I care just don't say it's forge welded.

Why are so many folks, blacksmiths as well, such lousy welders? As already said welding is a skill that requires practice to learn and maintain. "Perishable skill" is a term I've been hearing for many years, I heard it first as such from a martial artist and typing is another, I used to touch type about 60-70 Wpm but not in a long time. back to why such poor welding in general. Two reasons, first being lack of time and interest in learning and maintaining the skill but second and I think root of the problem is the wire feed welder. Welding has NEVER been point and shoot, electric welding has ALWAYS been, "make a puddle, fill the puddle".

Unfortunately mig makes pretty beads with little skill but pretty doesn't mean good weld. When you take the point and shoot skill level and apply it to the much cheaper flux core wire feed you get splattery chicken track poor weldments. 

This is a common problem folks tend to think it's the tool that does the work for example how many beginners are looking for the: "best" anvil, forge, hammers, tongs, etc.? Sure, high quality tools in good condition make it easier to do high quality work but if the smith isn't up to high quality work it's not going to happen.

Yes I can tig weld though I'd have to crack my book and practice before I called myself competent, I haven't struck an arc with a tig torch in a couple decades. It was called heli arc when I learned, that argon stuff was being talked about but a long way from common shield gas. If you can run a competent bead with oxy acet you can TIG weld. The skills are essentially identical all you need do is learn a little about how the various shielding gasses effect the plasma column and penetration and how to adjust real time with the arc length. It takes maybe half an hour to get used to weaving a tig arc. No biggy it's an easy skill to pick up.

Different metals are a bigger issue. Learn on Stainless, it flows like butter, the melt is fluid, edges wet almost automatically and it's relatively slow solidification so you can push the puddle fairly easily. Tigging aluminum is harder it freezes fast and it doesn't flow nicely so edges don't wet without encouragement and beads are higher and more lumpy. If you see nice even beads in al welds you got you a good welder.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Anachronist58]

14 hours ago, Marc1 said:

quien me ayuda con la rima?

Marc, for the sake of transparency, I hack my Spanish out with a heavy hammer and a dull chisel. I recite much better than I comprehend, and I must say, your lyric rolls off the tongue like hot honey. I limited myself to twenty minutes of searching to get a feel for the zeitgeist (oder, wollen sie, platzgeist?).

This tailor is not qualified to help.

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

"Perishable skill"

Unfortunately mig makes pretty beads with little skill but pretty doesn't mean good weld. When you take the point and shoot skill level and apply it to the much cheaper flux core wire feed you get splattery chicken track poor weldments.

Frosty, what YOU said.

Flux core wire can make some very fine beads. but if, as you have elegantly stated, one does not control arc length, attitude, weave, and travel speed, one ends up with bird poop.  In other words, if one does not know how to STICK weld, what hope is there to achieve proficiency with CONTINUOUS STICK (MIG) welding?

I failed to realize, at first, that the wire speed control on my Lincoln 140C is calibrated to 1# spools. Put a ten pounder on the machine and you will be asking yourself how you could suddenly have become such a Nincompoop Weldor!

Robert Taylor

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Wire speed is my biggest challenge with the Hobart, never seem to get it right.

[Marc1]

Good points about welding Frosty. Welding with the new inverters full of helping programs has never been easier. The downside being that the welds may not stand up to a strength test.

If you are building a balcony railing, that could be a problem. If you are making a trinket to sell in the local market may be not so much. 

22 minutes ago, Anachronist58 said:

Marc, for the sake of transparency, I hack my Spanish out with a heavy hammer and a dull chisel. I recite much better than I comprehend, and I must say, your lyric rolls off the tongue like hot honey. I limited myself to twenty minutes of searching to get a feel for the zeitgeist.

Ha ha, I have fun writing, and hackpoetry is part of the fun. For the sake of the english only readers, ... poem like lyrics, don't need to make sense, just rime.

Mastropiero is a fictional character whose full name is Johan Sebastian Mastropiero, a musician of dubious character and horrible production, a bit like the Bard of Asterisks.

An "Endecha" is a dirge. 

"Jabato" means valiant, but is also the hero of a spanish comic book from the sixties. A bit of a play of words may be a bit obscure. 

"Ya no hay pájaro en el nido" ... no more food in the larder. 

"Y si el sastre no se arrima" If [Mr] Taylor does not come ... who will help me with the rhyme.

Thank you to the anonymous translator, you did a swell job considering the challenge. 

[Marc1]

42 minutes ago, Irondragon Forge & Clay said:

Wire speed is my biggest challenge with the Hobart, never seem to get it right.

Years ago I bought a MIG that was on special, last of its kind ... I mean last of the transformer MIG, no electronics. Weighs a ton and can weld a structural I beam with ease. 

But i couldn't get it to weld consistently. The wire feed seemed to have a mind of its own. 

Until I discovered the reason. The wire is pushed by a little motor and you regulate the tension via a spring, however for this precarious arrangement to work you need to keep tension behind the pulling wheels with a bit of friction on the spool. My machine missed a part. A plastic ring on the shaft held in place by a pin and keeping the wire under tension and stopping the spool from continue to roll when you start and stop welding. As soon as I added the ring, the wire feed worked as it should. 

[Anachronist58]

Was the drag tension "adjustable?"

[Marc1]

It is with plastic washers. You can improvise cutting out a plastic milk bottle I suppose. 

[Anachronist58]

Precarious Indeed.  At least the 140 C has a wingnut drag tensioner, so, fairly simple.

[anvil]

On 1/23/2020 at 2:32 PM, Marc1 said:

you have no issues welding when necessary

A few comments. Necessary is the key word. No brag meant, and a great chuckle at my own expense was when my mig was stolen. I did not notice it for two months, and it's loss has never been a hinderence in my work roll. It's use is minimal. My oxy/actl rig, on the other hand would be a sore loss. To sum it up I suppose the way I got to this point was saying no to Fab bumpers and horse shoeing jobs. And I'm here to tell you, there was a time of me saying no to that type work far exceeded any jobs forgable on the horizon. But preserverance paid off, and here I am. 

 

On 1/23/2020 at 2:32 PM, Marc1 said:

And so to my follow up question ... why is it that so many blacksmith I know, unless it is a series of unfortunate coincidences ... are lousy at welding? To me, correct me if I am wrong, it seems that the welder is wielded as a tool of last resort, a necessary evil used reluctantly, and not a valued tool to be proud of. 

My experience is that most of the self employed, traditional smiths I know are good welders. However, their welder, like mine, is not a primary tool. It's a secondary tool at best. It has its function and need. 

As to "necessary evil", well, I seem to hear this type of remark more from people who tend to ask such questions as " what really is a real blacksmith". than from working smiths and there doesn't seem to be any emotional basis if it is brought up. A welder is just a tool. It does not hold the same place of prominence in a blacksmith shop as it does if your primary work is forge and Fab.

It's pretty common that, if I need a longer piece of steel, I forge weld some drop and it takes somewhere around one heat or so to do this. I've not seen this to be too common in a welding shop. Drop goes to scrap, then the scrap dealer. Why? Ironically because this tool, meant to save time, just takes too much time for this task. 

On 1/23/2020 at 2:32 PM, Marc1 said:

To the contrary the traditional town blacksmith was on the vanguard of the available technology of the time and rushed to incorporate all sort of innovation when they become available. ironically it was those same innovations that doomed the forge in favour of the fabricator  ...and the rest is history.

 Lol, "rushed to incorporate _ _ _ innovation". I don't think there were many. From charcoal to coal was pretty major,,,.  . And next came oxy/actl. Tool steels we're about the same.  Lol.

 On a more serious note, "Innovations that doomed,,,,and the rest is history." I take a different view of this.the industrial revolution brought one major thing to our world. Power that was unimaginable "back in the day". Just look at all those huge contemporary hammers of our day working billits weighing tons. That's where cutting edge technology begins and is critical for any industrial nation. 

The middle, on the other hand did in fact evolve into today's "job shops". No longer do we smell coal around these shops,, now we smell burning rod. And talk of diversity. It's as diverse a market today as it was a hundred years ago. The change? The tools used to heat it and shape it.

The other end, however, now there's where our craft still shines with little change, but change never the less. That's Traditional Architectural Ironworks. And it too is diverse. The basics have not changed. You need heat, a hammer, and something to beat it on. How you manifest these basics will depend on the pathway thru this diversity that you take,, and the preferences of the smith. Want to do forged and Fab? Go for it. Want to be a traditional smith? It's a bold and satisfying pathway.

On 1/24/2020 at 11:03 AM, ThomasPowers said:

Or probably the biggest mistake: thinking that a smithy would only have one person working in it.

One of the Innovations of the industrial revolution is that the helper has not disappeared, he/she has been replaced by the 25# lil giant. 

As for " traditional", the definition worked out here fits my definition very well. To paraphrase: a passing down of such things as techniques and joinery. To me it never means being a "historical" smith emulating a particular period of time. To me it means "something to heat with, something to heat, something to hit it with and something to hit it on". And, most important, a continuum of passed on tooling and joinery techniques, with just a dab of aesthetics.

[JHCC]

Well said. 

[JHCC]

3 hours ago, anvil said:

I suppose the way I got to this point was saying no to Fab bumpers and horse shoeing jobs. And I'm here to tell you, there was a time of me saying no to that type work far exceeded any jobs forgable on the horizon. But preserverance paid off, and here I am. 

To quote my friend PJ (a B2B software consultant), “The biggest part of developing a business strategy is determining all the things you need to be saying No to.”

[John McPherson]

15 hours ago, JHCC said:

To quote my friend PJ (a B2B software consultant), “The biggest part of developing a business strategy is determining all the things you need to be saying No to.”

That statement is solid gold! And it applies to all of life.