the iron dwarf Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 I think there is a need..... so..... recently have been working on a hand crank blower, it will be a while yet before there is anything to see though, maybe by TORM parts ordered impeller made awaiting parts it may also be foot powered in the future will post here when there is news Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 There is definitely a need for a new one as the old one's are getting hard to keep going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 There are new ones available from India IIRC, like the postvises they are a bit pricey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted September 27, 2018 Author Share Posted September 27, 2018 I have an india made one and the quality is no better than expected, some progress first attempt at sprockets failed but one of the 2 sizes needed has now been drawn by my associate and the other one should be easier. 4 sprockets, 2 chains, a handle with a clutch in it so the handle stops when you let go but the blades still turn. fan made, sketches done for casing shafts for sprockets and fan got bearings sorted have to wait about 2 weeks to get sprockets made and then can sort layout Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevomiller Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 Are you hoping to start manufacturing these for sale? Or planning to make the plans open source to the community? Wishing you success either way, entrepreneur or blacksmith philanthropist, both worthy goals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 Shell castings in Al? I don't think it really needs Cast Iron... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 Ok, first thing is I commend you on the task at hand.. Second.. Where are all the pictures? If one studies all the blowers made over the last 100+ years that were commercially availbile there is a bunch of information to be had.. 48 to 1 is in the ball park as to what the big named makers were using.. Buffalo forge made a bunch of styles but the Silent 200 seems to be made about the longest and in 3 different sizes.. 12", 14" and 16".. the only different between the 12" and the 14" is the fan size. Otherwise nearly all the sizings and casting were the same.. The 16" on the other hand was comlpletely different with even the gear case being slightly different.. The same ratio is in place.. with 48/1 being the basis it then becomes how big a fan can you get away with before the gearing of 48/1 tires out your arm.. This means a larger gear/number of teeth to get a larger fan blade to get more air volume.. The ratio of the older 12" buffalo was such that after a time in service Buffalo found they could install the larger impeller with little if any ill effect other than more air produced. If you have a chance to try a champion 400 or a buffalo silent 200 it seems that this feeling in the hand crank is about right.. I"ve used 50 different blowers and the C 400 and B 200 or the Cannedy-Otto are my blowers of choice for a smaller gear driven units. Both Buffalo, Cannedy-Otto and Champion all produced lever operated as well as belt operated blowers.. The belt driven bloweres can be amazing to use as all there is for noise is air flow.. If the belt driven blowers were 't so expensive to buy I'd own one of those too.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamboat Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 20 hours ago, the iron dwarf said: 4 sprockets, 2 chains, a handle with a clutch in it so the handle stops when you let go but the blades still turn. I like the idea of using a clutch with the handle. Avoids having to chase a rotating handle when you want to crank it. What type of clutch are you going to use for the handle? A sprag clutch, perhaps? Cylindrical or asymmetric sprags? I've seen some sprag clutches with a built-in row of roller bearings on each side of the sprag section so that the clutch "unit" can carry an axial load without having to install extra bearings, which might make for a compact design. An added advantage of an overrun clutch, although a minor one, would be to prevent someone from cranking the fan in the wrong direction. Al (Steamboat) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 Just curious about some decisions. Why have sprockets made rather than using the cheap standard ones off the shelf? Is there some other reason you chose to do that? What did you decide on for the final total gear ratio? IIRc the old units vary from 1:20 to about 1:40...but those cheap current units you mentioned appear to have a terrible ratio that looks more like 1:10 from what I've seen in vids. People seem to have to crank like it's a coffee grinder. Are you adding anything in the design to maintain inertia? Since you mentioned a clutch I was just curious if you had some extra inertia so the impellers would keep on going longer than without. Interesting sounding project. If I would building a "one off", I'd lean toward bicycle parts as old bikes can be had for a song and a dance at goodwill and similar. Commercial and reproducible versions I'd have to ponder a bit more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 They have one way bearings that would work great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Steamboat said: Avoids having to chase a rotating handle when you want to crank it. don't chase it, just leave your hand in one place and let it come to you. And if it stops, you know where it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cincinnatus Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 Anyway to modify the drive train from a bike to drive the blower. Do away with the derailers and gear it how you want. It would only drive in one direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 Usually the blowers I use never spin fast enough to have to chase it even when I let go of it.. The newer smaller ones are terrible with a bad ratio so the smallish handle has to move at 200mph to get any air flow.. 13 minutes ago, Cincinnatus said: Anyway to modify the drive train from a bike to drive the blower. Do away with the derailers and gear it how you want. That would work.. I'l test out the reduction. What is the configuration? Side blower, tangential blower. Snail scroll You could mount it on the end of a shaft but then one would have to come up with mounting.. If used like the old belt drive units you could use the spindle bearings and just remove all the spokes and use this as the center hub for the fin mounts.. You could actually just use a rear triangle of the bike as a floor mount.. HUH.. Now thinking.. 52 big ring, 13 small ring back.. 3.75 revolutions.. Youd have to double them.. Sadly, now would come out the books on gears to figure out teeth and chain ratios.. I looked at a rotor tiller drive once but the ratio was about 5/1 so to slow.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted September 28, 2018 Author Share Posted September 28, 2018 im going for 36 - 1 and hoping the sprockets / chains / shafts have enough inertia 2 10 tooth sprockets and 2 60 tooth with a 3/8" pitch chain large sprocket is about 8" diameter using clutch bearings in the handle impeller is 4 blade and about 8" diameter I want to make the unit to hook on the side of my forge and if using foot drive it would fix to the legs too got the idea for foot drive from an old foot operated grinder I recently bought, a chain going down to a pedal and a one way sprocket, chain had a long spring on the other end reason for getting sprockets made is 60 tooth gets expensive compared to laser cutting them most parts will be laser cut steel for bearings I will use brass olives for pipe fabricated steel case the forges I make are bottom blast with a single hole of about 7/16 in the tue and work at a higher than average air pressure, they have been in use for years and there are many hundreds of them in use from the shetlands in the north of the british isles to new zealand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamboat Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 42 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said: Usually the blowers I use never spin fast enough to have to chase it even when I let go of it.. 36 minutes ago, anvil said: don't chase it, just leave your hand in one place and let it come to you. And if it stops, you know where it is. Both of your responses are well taken, and I guess "chase" was not the best choice of words for me to use. A clutch on the handle is not what I would call a "significant" advantage, but if the handle always stops in the same place, my take on it is that it might shave off a second or so every now and then, and it also seems to me that one could easily become adept at grabbing the handle in its fixed "parking place" without even taking a moment to look in its general direction. So I think it's only a "minor" advantage in the time sense, but I figure if you're going to design the dream hand-crank blower, why not add all the niceties? Another small plus for a clutch might be that a rotating handle could bonk into something or someone, although that should typically be a fairly rare event. Has that ever happened to you? And as mentioned, the clutch would assure that the blower is always cranked in the right direction, which might be helpful for novices, although just to play the advocate, one might argue that they should just learn to do it right in the first place. Al (Steamboat) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted September 28, 2018 Author Share Posted September 28, 2018 one type of cheap chinese hand crank I have seen here lasted only a few minutes, it broken when it was turned the wrong way, cost about $65 IIRC I have a Zomax blower made in India and it works but IMO using worm and wheel the wrong way and no bearings that I can see it will wear fast I want to make one that lasts and is affordable yes im making it to sell there will be pix of it when it is working Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamboat Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 1 hour ago, the iron dwarf said: got the idea for foot drive from an old foot operated grinder I recently bought, a chain going down to a pedal and a one way sprocket, chain had a long spring on the other end The foot drive idea in conjunction with a one-way clutch is intriguing. It could be a very simple, low-maintenance linkage. If the pedal/treadle travel is short enough to be operated by your toe while keeping your heel firmly on the floor, or if the pedal/treadle geometry provides a stable and comfortable place for your foot while standing at the forge in your normal working stance, then it should have little, if any, effect on your balance and stability while working at the forge, and it should be easy to adapt to. Al (Steamboat) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 Steamboat.. As to the handle and a 1 way clutch.. If the blower is like a champion or a Cannedy-Otto the blower can turn either direction to get blast.. The Buffalo 200 can only be turned in 1 direction to generate blast.. This one way clutch would serve okay with the Buffalo but unless you know which way the person likes to turn the C or CO it might not work unless you can pop the one way bearing out and switch it around.. As to being whacked with the handle.. Yes it has happened on a few occasions when I worked 30 years ago when i dropped a hot piece of metal under the blower which had my nail keg, oil can and a few other pieces of wood.. If it adds complexity to the blower as a part that can fail then I'd leave it out unless it's a coolness factor.. Most of the blowers I have are over 100 years old and I don't think they killed anyone or took a iimb or even a finger.. I have taken the handle to the back and once took it to the rib but it was in close quarters.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamboat Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 Jennifer, I am assuming that if Iron Dwarf is designing the blower from scratch, it seems to me that he would probably use a directional design, but I can't speak for him. He'd be the one to answer that. I have an old Champion blower in the basement with a symmetrical housing around the impeller that I might overhaul some day, and you are correct that it doesn't really care which way it turns, while the Buffalo blower on my forge is definitely directional with its spiral housing. I can see that it could be handy to have a non-directional blower that would allow the user to crank it in a preferred direction (if they have a preferred direction), although I'm guessing that the efficiency would probably be lower than with a directional-type blower. Your comment about being able to switch the clutch around to change direction is a good idea if it is being used on a non-directional blower. I agree that additional complexity can potentially lower reliability, although a good-quality sealed sprag clutch should be a highly reliable device, and one could be selected that could handle many times the maximum loading that it would encounter in a blower, so it should have a low likelihood of failure in long-term usage. Also as you said, it could be a selling point for its cool factor, even though it's a small detail, and the benefits are there but not necessarily overwhelming. For marketing purposes, it's the kind of thing that can reinforce the perception that the maker is very detail oriented, technically superior, etc. Al (Steamboat) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HojPoj Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 ID, another machine to look at for potential parts are exercise rowing machines. They probably use the same sorts of hardware you're planning, but I've seem some that would great to hook in your treadle arrangement. The rowing handle is attached to a chain that goes over a one- way bearing with a sprocket on it. As I recall the hardware on the rower looked a bit beefier than the one way bearings I bought, though it might've just been a larger shaft size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted September 29, 2018 Author Share Posted September 29, 2018 the only problem with using rower parts is where can I get a regular supply of exactly the same item, if I need 20 in the next week for example I need to buy new rowers and hope the maker still makes the same model for many years, I can buy new bearings for less than $2 and can supply them as spare parts when needed. the one way sprocket I have is very common on cycles that dont have derailleur gears and it is the exact part used on the victorian grinder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 It will be interesting.. Open or oil bath? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted September 29, 2018 Author Share Posted September 29, 2018 closed in to keep the worst out and with 2 small holes in the top to get a few drops of oil on each chain is what im thinking but things can change as needed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted September 29, 2018 Author Share Posted September 29, 2018 here is my way of making an impeller, it is about 8" across, each blade was twisted by 90 degrees after this pic was taken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevomiller Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Nice work thus far Mr Dwarf. In a previous time of life I managed a bicycle shop. If you use one of the dry lubricants (wax with PTFE or Moly) on the chains it will help with keeping the chains tidy, although oiled chains and gears are somewhat quieter. Roller chains are interesting and counter intuitive, as efficiency goes up with increased tension and lubrication doesn’t improve efficiency as much as other drive mechanisms (although cleanliness and lubrication will radically improve chain an cog life). Are you laser cutting the gears due to cost, or for availability of the mounting features etc you require? Are you second operation I gotta the beveled top op the teeth, or just going with thinner stock and debuting? I ask as gears for#35 drive chains are not too costly here in the US, not sure on your side of the pond. I think Jen’s input on possibly allowing set up for direction of rotation (as well as over orientation) might be nice, to allow variety in poisoning due to shop lay out and whether the Smith is right handed or south paw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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