Power hammer test

[John Larson]

John N invited me to give this test a go, so I tested one of my iron kiss octagon 100 pound hammers today. My dies on this machine are 2 3/4 wide, flat, with generous edge radius. I set the stroke to 9" of air space and the speed to about 175 bpm. I used the coal/coke forge and took the 1x1 HR A36 8" bars to welding heat. I had center punched the 2" point and laid that mark where the flat of the die started and the edge radius ended. The appearance was similar to that shown by others. The average for 5 blows was .586" and the 10-blow number was .360". I found some variation in the A-36, but maybe that is a non issue for us. I looked for a piece of pure iron but didn't have any 1x1 (grin). I have a 150 nearing completion so it will be a blast to try it.

[Sam Salvati]

Here is the latest list with John's IronKiss numbers added in.

Best in 5 blows:
Nazel 3B
Say Mak 60KG
Anyang 88#
Sahinler 110#
Say Mak 50KG
IronKiss Octagon 100
Big Blu 155 MAX
KA75
1909 MacGowan and Finnigan "Perfect" 80#
Little Giant 25
Kane and Roach 85#
Don S's Rusty hammer 34#


Best in 10 blows
Nazel 3B
Say Mak 60KG
Anyang 88#
IronKiss Octagon 100
Sahinler 110#
Big Blu 155 MAX
Anyang 55#
KA75
1909 MacGowan and Finnigan "Perfect" 80#
Kane and Roach 85#
Don S's Treadle Hammer 66#
Don S's Rusty hammer 34#
Little Giant 25#

Thanks for weighing in John, it was a pleasure to meet you and try your hammer in Maryland.

[Sam Salvati]

As I was asked on another forum to post the numbers of thickness after each set of blows, I figured to post it here also.

Best in 5 blows:
Nazel 3B - .308
Say Mak 60KG - .320
Anyang 88# - .430
Sahinler 110# - .543
Say Mak 50KG - .583
IronKiss Octagon 100 - .586
Big Blu 155 MAX - .705
KA75 - .773
1909 MacGowan and Finnigan "Perfect" 80# - .825
Little Giant 25 - .873
Kane and Roach 85# - .877
Don S's Rusty hammer 34# - .906


Best in 10 blows
Nazel 3B - .155
Say Mak 60KG - .260
Anyang 88# - .300
IronKiss Octagon 100 - .360
Sahinler 110# - .397
Big Blu 155 MAX - .475
Anyang 55# - .545
KA75 - .565
1909 MacGowan and Finnigan "Perfect" 80# - .630
Kane and Roach 85# - .721
Don S's Treadle Hammer 66# -.780
Don S's Rusty hammer 34# - .832
Little Giant 25# - .835

[brucegodlesky]

I did the test this morning on my Fairbanks A (50#)
The 5 hit test was 11/16" 0.6875
the 10 hit test was9/16" 0.5625

[Dave Budd]

It would be interesting to see what the same 5 and 10 hit results are for the use of one's normal hand hammer?

I doub't any of us could reduce a 1" bar to 0.3" in 5 blows, but I reckon lots could do the 0.9

[brucegodlesky]

Dave my arm hurts thinking about it

[ChrisB]

That could open up a hole new level of discussion.

"He used a 8lb sledge.." "His anvil is 400lbs"

[dlpierson]

Anyone have an Anyang 33 to run this on? It'd be interesting to see how it compares to the other lighter hammers. The 88 certainly seems to be holding up its end of the competition.

[nonjic]

I can try one later in the week. The only problem with the 33# is the die is only 2"x1" , I suppose If I lay the billet along the die it will fit :D

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Dave Budd: Fair point, but, and this is a big but, how long does it take to do 5 blows? 10 blows? Can you do it all day? It only takes a small amount of electricity to far out do our puny muscles. But it's still a fair point.

[nonjic]

Dave, Ill hold the stock for you and shout encouragment whilst you hit it! We can do it at Owens of Jacks next year (oh no, this could turn into a drunken who hits hardest comp!, can we use 1/2" square? , please???? )

[Dave Budd]

:D I'm not suggesting that we ditch power hammers and go back to hand forging. just thought it would be an interesting thing to see. Good to show off to girls on courses/at shows?

Obviously we all (taken from another thread) wield 25lb hammers and lift anvils like they were feathers

Believe me, if I could afford a power hammer I certainly would use it. I recently acquired a flypress and I've found myself using that for some of the drawing out that I have always done by hand. any labour saving is welcome

John, I'm sure we both know what would happen if we did try anything like that at a Owen's or even worse Jack's! Absoulte carnage, lots of sweat, and Mr yarrow would end up in casualty again :lol:

[DClaville]

noting wrong in swinging a big sledge hammer all day long does it a lot (still don't have a powerhammer) for drawing my damascus and thick steel out to blade stock
hmm reminds me a mate comes over this weekend and we will be making damascus two days out. one day at the sledge each

I am glad to see this test and find the 25kg/55 anyang doing okay. i will hopefully get one at the start of next year

Cheers
DC

[Sam Salvati]

I wish I could get a job swinging a sledge all day! For some reason I have an unnatural desire to do it....any time I get the chance.

It was brought up on another forum, this test in in no way a judge of how GOOD a power hammer is, just hitting hard is not what a power hammer is all about. Owen Bush and John N brought up that power without control is just about useless, control is a MAJOR part, the ability to tap lightly as well as lay a HUGE stomp on the metal is critical. Longevity and ability to get replacement parts is another key element to buying a powerhammer. Efficiency is also another required thought, how many HP does it take to run your hammer? A 4HP motor powering a self contained hammer equal if not better to a 10HP compressor powering an air hammer is something to consider. Remember, all things to consider when considering buying/buying a powerhammer.

Edited June 3, 2009 by ApprenticeMan

[Frosty]

I can try one later in the week. The only problem with the 33# is the die is only 2"x1" , I suppose If I lay the billet along the die it will fit

You could cut a 1" cube and weld a handle to it.

Frosty

[philip in china]

Mr. Hofi, Is that 25Kg Anyang the one piece hammer? I am hoping to take delivery of one very soon. What adjustments or tuning should I do to it before I run it? Do you have any tips to help me please?

[Jamesrjohnson]

One thing that is apparent is that you have to be careful in looking at the "poundage" rating of hammers in judging the hitting power of hammers. There are some smaller hammers that will out pound much heavier ones. I have to agree with Sam and others that what is most important is the controllability of the hammer. I have enclosed pictures of some bookends that I forged out a couple of months ago. The material was 3 by 5" stock. The first bookends were forged in 2 heats. The bookends that were forged down to about 1/8" on the edge was done in 3 heats. All of this was done on my Anyang 165. It is very infrequently that I use the full power of the hammers that I use. I probably spend more time with controlled, well placed (or I hope they are) hits.

[AndrewOC]

Here is another squishing result, one blow.
http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f82/my-100-ton-fly-press-11998/index2.html#post116657
I know its not a 'hammer' as such, but great for the chart, ya?

Andrew O'C

[Jura T]

I just made the test with my russian hammer (50 kg, 5.5 kw motor). I don't have any 1" square, so I took some 20mm square and upset it. It was the first to me to upset anything with a power hammer, so it was actually nice to try that as well. I only did test with 5 blows with the result of
.453"
The bar moved a bit (~0.2") before the last two hits so let's say the result is 0.460".

Sam, are we getting results for 33 lb Anyang any time soon?:)

[John Larson]

I finished up a 150 pound Iron Kiss and gave the test a go. The 5 blow number is .412" and the 10 blow number is .272". I used A36 1x1 just like before.

Now having done the test and reflecting on it, I'm not so sure it proves a lot. Others have expressed that control trumps brute force, and I totally agree. Virtually none of my customers has ever expressed interest in the brute force aspect this test highlights. Everyone is concerned about control for jobs like tapering a table leg, punching, etc.

I see in the test results an approximate segregation of self-containeds and utility hammers, at least enough to convince me that self-containeds have better air flow volumetric efficiency at full treadle. Generally speaking, the more air pumped through a hammer at full treadle, the more work done. I've built self-containeds, studied the concept intensely, and think I know why this is the case. And I pretty much know how to increase the volumetric efficiency of my utility hammers. The air cushion spears in the air cylinders have to be custom made larger so that the corresponding ports can be larger. Most of the other pieces of the air flow system can be acquired off the shelf.

Whether or not that change in utility hammer volumetric efficiency would bring about test equality is uncertain. Movement in that direction is very likely, but there are other factors to consider. Watching operation of old steam hammers do single blows suggests to me that a utility hammer could be made superior to a self-contained for this kind of test.

For what its worth, I set out to produce the best utility hammer on the planet. Now that this test is part of the public record I feel compelled to step up my R&D. :-)

[Bill Clemens]

It would be interesting to see what the same 5 and 10 hit results are for the use of one's normal hand hammer?

I doub't any of us could reduce a 1" bar to 0.3" in 5 blows, but I reckon lots could do the 0.9

Dave,

I decided to give my hand hammer and sledge a try. Posted the results in a new thread:

http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f57/biologically-powered-hammer-test-12762/#post119376

Bill

[imagedude]

Blacker

5 hits 0.79

10 hits 0.67

[John Larson]

Frank A asked me to run the test with his Iron Kiss Octagon125. The 5 blow # is .411 and the 10 blow # is .260. That is more than 50% better than the 100's and the 150's results averaged.

I just looked at the original post on page 1 and I was surprised. I've reported flattening 3" at the ends of the 1x1 sticks and not the 2" called for in the test. That makes a big difference. The Iron Kiss results are therefore uniformly understated. :-)

[FrankA]

Can't wait to test it myself

[mike-hr]

I agree that controllability is most likely more important than all out squishing power. I have some issues with this statement that I hope to qualify. My old mechanical hammer has, I admit, poor control compared to a new Say Ha, Sahinler, Anyang, etc. I can still put out fair work on my old hammer, I got used to it's personality, we get along fine together. What this test can do, other than polarize folks that sell new hammers, is give the using public a chance to see if their individual hammer is doing as good as it could. If we got 10 folks with 50# Little Giants to log their results, and someone sees that their individual setup is 20 percent less effective than the norm, they might have cause to check the spring and toggle arms for excessive wear. This could hypothetically increase productivity, and maybe warn them of a potential safety breach. I got the opportunity to watch Tom Clark tune a new hammer he delivered on the west coast a while back. He had his amp meter out, was watching what power it drew during use, and made some mystical adjustments that made the hammer sing like an angel. I don't think this is all about which hammer thumps the hardest, it's about how your individual hammer does in the field, and if it's not up to par, there are some of the finest brains around the world hanging around here that could help you to get somewhere in the middle. Carry on.