Power hammer test

[steveh]

Mr Hofi,am I safe to assume that your hammer weights are in kilos?

[Hofi]

To Prevent Missunderstanding
''shahinler'' 50 Kg Is 110 Pounds
''anyang'' 25 Kg Is 55 Pounds

Hofi

[Jose Gomez]

OUTSTANDING!! Thank you, Mr. Hofi, for taking the time to try this. Your data just proved that higher hammer weight does not mean the ability to move metal faster. The 110# Shahinler was way more effective than my 155# Big-Blu. Heck, that 55# Anyang also packed the steel down better than my KA-75. It would definitely appear that self-contained hammers do hit much harder pound for pound. I also like the idea of performing the test more than once and averaging the results, seems to me to ensure much more accurate results overall. Very interesting

Edited June 13, 2008 by Jose Gomez
I got a B- in spelling

[mike-hr]

Thanks for the data, Hofi! I find this fascinating, I always thought that my mechanical hammer could throw a good thump, the numbers that you and J Gomez logged in show some serious metal moving.
The last week, I've been mindful of how often I run my hammer 'flat out'. Turns out, it's quite often. Reminds me of riding my half-crazy Arabian horse. Once a person gets a feel for how an individual machine performs, it goes from, "Whats going to happen?", to "How soon can we get there?"
Keep the results coming, folks!

[Hofi]

The Att Foto Show's Two Ponts I Forged Yesterday With My 110-# 50 Kg Shahinler 20 Years Old Air Hammer. From 1'' Squer In One Heat.
One Is 25'' Long
The Second Is 271/2'' Long
No Problam To Forge Even 4'' Longer
Hofi

[Hofi]

ANOTHER TEST TO FORGE A LONG POINT FROM 1'' SQUER WITH MY 110lbs
20 years old shahinler
THIS ONE IS 31'' FORGED IN ONE HEAT

NEXT WEEK IT WILL BE 4'' LONGER

HOFI

[Hofi]

Sorry The Photo Did Not Came

Hofi

[steveh]

Mr Hofi,what is the length of 1in sq. you start out with?thanks Steve.

[Hofi]

HELLO
I started with 350 mm that are 13.780''
Hofi

[Hofi]

Steveh

acc to the geometry for the point theoretical calculation 1:3 ratio one can get to
1050 mm which is 41.3'' but because we are not geting a zero point the practical
ratio is 1:2.5 . In the test above I got 1:2.25 .No problame to get longer
if you want to forge it beyond the natueral proportion.
Hofi

[steveh]

thankyou Mr Hofi for the reply and the math lesson,have a good day,Steve.

[Tom Poole]

I guess I should wait until I get batteries for my camera and enough steel to do both test's, but I thought I would post this before I forget.
I didn't measure the stock's exact thickness before hand. It was hot rolled 1".

I did 5 blows on 2" of 1" sq.
.583

I am extremely busy right now, but when I get time I will do both tests.

Hofi,
Thanks for all of your blueprints.

Tom Poole
Northern Kentucky

[Bam Bam]

I thought that your hammer test was such a great idea that I tried it on my two hammers and used it for my very first IForgeIron post.

The first is my Little Giant 25 pounder (1914)
5 blows = 0.873
10 blows = 0.835

I probably could have done some adjusting and got a little more work out of it. It was set up for some tooling and I was lazy. I may try it again.

The other hammer is my Nazel 3B (1920's)
5 blows = 0.308
10 blows = 0.155

I am going to get some friends to run the test on a tire hammer and a Phoenix.

[Jose Gomez]

Outstanding! That 3B is a beast!! Its neat seeing the results from different hammers. Thanks for taking the time to try this!

[Madmike]

Yep that 3B surely moves some metal
If the friend of mine who shakes the sledge see this pic, he won't strike anymore :
STRIKER ON STRIKE that would be a problem :p

[Tom Clark]

Mike-hr,

Your idea of forging 2” of 1” square stock under the flat dies is a good idea. First, most all of the mild steel we are getting today is A36, and it varies both in chemistry and thickness in one 20’ bar the way we buy it. After cutting several sample pieces and measuring them, I found them to vary from .002” undersized to .002” oversize. There is a possibility that the reason for this thickness difference is the chemistry of the steel. I have had several experiences where I found a bad piece of steel after doing a lot of hard work on the opposite end of it. So, difference in chemistry of the steel could have something to do with the difference in thickness when they are rolling it. It could also be that the rolling dies for this low grade of steel where the dimension is not guaranteed.

For a true test, we should use either 1020 or cold rolled steel. Either way it is not going to make a whole lot of difference. There are also some other issues. How does one know that they have hit at the 2” mark? For my test, on my 60 Kg Say-Mak, I put one center punch mark at exactly 2”, and then 3/16” behind it, I put another center punch mark. This helped me to see where the true mark was, and the forged piece revealed the results. I also found that with 10 blows under the 60 Kg, the stock grew 1 3/8” in the long plane. My dies are 3” wide. However, the amount of taper down to the final dimension under the flat dies was 3/8”, which means anybody performing this test must have dies that are at least 3” wide, and even wider if they are going thinner than my 10 blow test.

Now the test results for my 60 Kg were:

5 blows: .320”
10 blows: .260”

The most important factor besides the size of the hammer is the blows per minute. My 60 hits 220 beats per minute. The more beats per minute, the more iron one can forge, but controlling anything over 240 beats per minute is very difficult regardless of the size of the hammer. As soon as I get another 50 kg running, I will do a test on it.

I think the best way to really test this is for all parties interested to come to the SOFA Conference in September. We will take sample pieces to all of the vendors that sell these hammers. Let’s see for ourselves, in public, what we are really comparing.

Let me toss out another challenge. Take a piece of 2” round 6” long, leaving 2 1/8’ on each end and see how long you can draw the piece out in one heat. I would recommend that every hammer being used in this test use the standard drawing dies that came from the manufacturer. I’ll do this demo at Quadstate, and will furnish the steel for any other manufacturer who is selling new hammers today that is willing to accept the challenge.

Best Regards,

Tom Clark

Edited July 7, 2008 by Tom Clark
Had forgotten signature.

[Jose Gomez]

Now were talking!!! This is exelent. Thanks for your time and intrest Mr. Clark I look forward to seeing your results!

[ornametalsmith]

hi Tom,
good to see you posting here. I'm looking forward to hearing about the results you get at the SOFA conference.
It will be interesting seeing this "test" refined to reduce some of the variables.

[Jymm Hoffman]

While this is an excellent idea and about the best test to do, from what I have recently learned, it does not sound as though any of the other dealers/manufacturers are willing to show up and participate. Some may claim higher fuel prices or busy etc. What's up with that?

[Shane Stegmeier]

Have you hauled a power hammer to Sofa? I can understand, people not being willing to haul in a hammer on the off chance they might sell... Most blacksmiths I have met are cheap, myself included;-) You may want to test drive a hammer before you cough up for one, but most of us can't drop 5-10K on an impulse buy. I am going to miss Sofa again this year (Got a nice paying demo where I can also sell, and I can't turn it down to spend money... ;-) And it looks like a really nice line up of demo's this year at Quadstate, and I will certainly miss the forging contest;-)

From the seller's perspective too many tire kickers, not enough people who can show me the money, doesn't matter how nice the hammer is if you can't swing the price right now... and I wouldn't like to spend the money and the time, and the trouble to load up a hammer or two and haul them there and feel like I wasted a bunch of time and money for "advertising" because no one there had the money in their budget to take one home this year...

Being a little frugal is probably the wise thing to do this year, even more than in other years. God is Good, All the Time, the same thing cannot be said for our economy... and the wise man prepares for the day of adversity...

[Jymm Hoffman]

Finn,
I understand what you are saying, especially if you have a paying demo and you not showing up. One of the problems I have had with SOFA's choice of weekends. The first time I went was in 1981. The second time I went was in 2001. I have only been there 3 times, going for my 4th. I have been a full time smith for over 25 years. When doing the weekend selling thing, this is a prime time of the year. So that really makes it tough on those of us trying to make a living at this. I also understand that many blacksmiths are just out and out cheap. Plus I know what is involved, cost and work, to haul equipment. My historic traveling forge takes a 14 foot tandem axle trailer, etc. etc. etc.

However, if you are in the business of selling, especially power hammers, you know you have to put up with tire kickers. You also should know, you some times need to put up with this to get as much exposure as possible. As I have told people that approach me about going into business as a blacksmith, the advice I give I believe applies to power hammer dealers as well, you need to do 3 things besides make a quality product. You need a catalog or brochure, an internet web page, and you still need to get out so people and actually touch what you make or sell. Again in the case of SOFA'S Quad State Round Up (the real name for this event,) where are you going to get this many people? I was trying to be nice. I have seen some advertising of other hammers and Tom put out a challenge for them to put the hammers to a test and I have tried a couple of other hammers. I think Tom scared off the competition.

I don't get paid for this, but I am prejudice enough to say it is the best power hammer for the money. Good enough that I bought a second one and don't regret it. Too many blacksmiths are penny wise and pound foolish. I certainly am not rich, and probably never will be, but I do try to balance running a business, love of the craft, spending time with my family and paying my bills. Some days I am successful. As I once told a local hobbyist, recently retired and wanted to make some money doing this stuff as he whined about paying for some tooling: "have you ever regretted buying a cheap tool?" He answered yes. "Have you ever regretted buying a good tool?" Guess the answer: "no." I know that dollars don't always make a good tool, but my research showed, and 6 years experience as proven to me that I made the right choice buying a hammer from Tom Clark. So now I will ask again, why is the competition not showing up to try Tom's challenge?

Jymm

Edited September 17, 2008 by Jymm Hoffman

[Barzillai]

Hey guys, first time in the conversation here. I am going to SOFA this year and am kind of in the market for a powerhammer. I have a 25# Little Giant, but would like something with a bit more kick. Who will have hammers at SOFA? Will I be able to get a deal on a demo hammer (so the dealer doesn't have to drag it home!)

I'm still checking my books, but the accountant is telling me this year has been good, and that I better spend some money on tooling or the tax man is going to take a real big bite.

I've heard good things about different hammers, but especially the Say-Mak.

Tom, what are you bringing to SOFA? I'd also like to hear what other dealers are bringing, if any. Also, if anybody has a slightly used hammer they are looking to move? Thanks.

Lastly, what will someone need to take home a hammer from SOFA? a personal check? Cash in hand? a bank statement? credit card?

[markh]

Barzillai,
Dean and Josh, from Big Blu, always offer to deliver hammer to meets so the customer can save on shipping costs. They have some godd deals right now on Power Hammer/Compressor packages that are priced cheaper than the self-contained. I know that a lot of people love th Say-Maks and I'm sure they're nice but I reccomend the Blu. They are very smooth hammers with a great "touch". When it comes down to it, Dean wins awards every year from NOMMA and he uses his hammer and his dies. That tells me that a Big Blu is more than I'll ever need. Go to their tent and try the hammer. I think you'll like. I know that you'll love the customer service before and after the sale.

[patrick]

Barzillai,

I know that a friend of mine, Jim Hollo, will have a 150 lb Bradley Upright (Guided) Helve hammer and a 200 lb Chambursburg Utility hammer at Quad State. I'd be surprised if either one will be able to operate at the fairgrounds, though Jim was talking about trying to find a large air compressor to run the Chambursburg.

Patirck

[Shane Stegmeier]

Howdie Patrick:-) Sorry I won't see you at Quadstate this year, and really sorry I won't see Jim;-) That little Chambersburg sounds like a really sweet hammer, and for someone with some commonsense and some guts that would make an awesome little hammer. You would need a rotory screw compressor, running into a big air reciever and a big FRO system, all steam hammers are air hogs;-) but sweet... I don't really want to know what he wants for it... might be too tempting, and money is tight;-) Maybe next year, and if Jim Hollo still keeps popping up with these great deals on old steam hammers who knows, maybe next year;-) The 600# Eire would have been nice;-)