Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 One thing that we haven't factored in is that a small hammer can deliver 2 - 3 times as many blows in a given time. Shouldn't a hammer that goes twice as fast be allowed to do ten and twenty blows respectively? After all, time is the important thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I wouldn't, I know Tom was a human dynamo... But as far as I know they dont have a high speed connection yet in Heaven.... There you go. Making unfounded assumptions again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I wouldn't, I know Tom was a human dynamo... But as far as I know they dont have a high speed connection yet in Heaven.... I keep telling you guys,you`re worshiping the wrong Gods. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I wouldn't, I know Tom was a human dynamo... But as far as I know they dont have a high speed connection yet in Heaven.... You mean they're still on DIAL-UP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 You mean they're still on DIAL-UP? Uh Grant,if they`re still on dial-up I think you pushed the wrong button on the elevator. Better jump back in before that door closes,I don`t think they`ll hold it for you. :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 The test on my hammer a 60 KG Say-Mak I may redo this again because I could have gone a bit harder on the treadle. 5 blows .603 10 blows .320 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twcoffey Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 The test on my hammer a 60 KG Say-Mak I may redo this again because I could have gone a bit harder on the treadle. 5 blows .603 10 blows .320 If you press to the max the highest acceleration of the head will be achieved and therefore max force. Ted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 your on the money with the bpm' thing grant! ive just bought a near perfect Massey 5cwt for pocket change, the firm just wanted it gone as it was to slow making the parts (4" bolster chisels) oh, yeah, their weapon of choice ? a 50 kg (or thereabouts) spring hammer running at about 350 blows a min horses for courses. edit, should the next power hammer test thread be ' hit it for 10 seconds / hit it for 20 seconds ' ? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 There is no substitute for power! Sounds like a great score John, I'm sure I would have some serious problems if I was in buying distance to you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrismetalsmith Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I will try this soon on my Nazel 2B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hanson Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 This is fun...It might be enough to get Hofi and Tom Clark posting again. Maybe I'll try it with my Nazel 2B and Saymak 50 when it warms up a bit around here. Hank Hi Hank. Tom would be all over this, as you know, he was extremely competitive! I need to give this a try with the new 100 lb Little Giant. It's been tweaked pretty good now :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hanson Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Don please try with all 3 of your hammers! Will do Sam. I need to see if I have any 1" mild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike-hr Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Grant, John N, I feel the 'test' should stand at 5 blows and 10 blows. I'd given up on being active in this thread, even though it was my fault birthing it, from all the bickering and whining of the new hammer sellers wanting to skew the simple process for their own benefit. I've been smithing for 15 yrs or so, and have been witness to countless pints consumed at hammer-ins late at night from folks talking about xx's Beaudry and how just plain hard it hits, and watching the immediate counter of yy's LG100 and how it can lay waste to a 1-1/4 sq bar, and if you really want to see some work done, try zz's 3B and collect your paycheck. I've run a fair bit of power hammer, after you figure out how each machine runs, it's mostly full throttle, get the most out of the heat,get subtle when the taper is almost finished. There has been enough counter-posts for me to concede the test's absurdity. Where I feel the value lies, is not in the quarter mile race, but with the guy like me, who lives semi-rural, and does what he can to make a living with what he's got to work with. I've never seen another 80# Mcgowan and Finnigan triphammer, besides the one I use every day. Is the leafspring pack on the linkage worn out? I haven't a bloody clue, because I've nothing to compare it to. I know I can make a passable living with the hammer as part of my arsenal, but is there another hammer out there of the same model that can thump harder? I want to talk to that guy, get a dialog running, trade ideas. If I'm behind him by 1/8 inch in 5 blows, I want to know why. It might be a simple tuning issue, or a sign that my springs are fatigued, They're only 100 years old, should be still fine, right? It seems like LG25's are the most common hammer I've seen in my area. We all know they won't compete with a BlueCow 150, they're not supposed to. If we can get some data compiled of how a rebuilt LG25 runs at 5 blows and 10 blows, from several different hammers around the universe, then LeRoy Backwoods can make an assumption that he's doing okay, or can start a dialog with the folks on the world wide inner-tube about what he can do to get close to the median. There's already been some talk about modern hammers running below what's posted. There's more clear thinking brain machines on this forum than I've seen anywhere else. Throw it out there, let's get your machine tuned up and get the shop running at its peak. Folks have been whining about the choice of materials. Let's face it, hot rolled square is a crap shoot. The reality is, if we have to forge a handrail, we're going to use hot rolled mat'l. I don't see the beauty in forging lead cubes, because we don't make railings from lead cubes. No matter how bad your chunk of hot roll square is, if it's at a near welding heat, it will deform under your flat dies. If it's 20% worse than what's posted here, let's pick the collective brain, and get your die clearance, air pressure, etc. figured out. There should'nt be any glory, testoserone, or anything else included. If you don't have 2 inches of flat die available, or can't approach a welding heat, don't post your results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Well said.... Thanks for bringing us back to reality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 thanks for re posting on the reasons for this thread .I must admit I had not seen it that way . I helped a friend with a sahinler with slipping belts , He did not realise the machine was doing 1/4 of the work it should and had never used another to compare it too ( I had) and it still hit stuff . . we fix it. I'll get some info on my hammers up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Grant, John N, I feel the 'test' should stand at 5 blows and 10 blows. I'd given up on being active in this thread, even though it was my fault birthing it, from all the bickering and whining of the new hammer sellers wanting to skew the simple process for their own benefit. I've been smithing for 15 yrs or so, and have been witness to countless pints consumed at hammer-ins late at night from folks talking about xx's Beaudry and how just plain hard it hits, and watching the immediate counter of yy's LG100 and how it can lay waste to a 1-1/4 sq bar, and if you really want to see some work done, try zz's 3B and collect your paycheck. I've run a fair bit of power hammer, after you figure out how each machine runs, it's mostly full throttle, get the most out of the heat,get subtle when the taper is almost finished. There has been enough counter-posts for me to concede the test's absurdity. Where I feel the value lies, is not in the quarter mile race, but with the guy like me, who lives semi-rural, and does what he can to make a living with what he's got to work with. I've never seen another 80# Mcgowan and Finnigan triphammer, besides the one I use every day. Is the leafspring pack on the linkage worn out? I haven't a bloody clue, because I've nothing to compare it to. I know I can make a passable living with the hammer as part of my arsenal, but is there another hammer out there of the same model that can thump harder? I want to talk to that guy, get a dialog running, trade ideas. If I'm behind him by 1/8 inch in 5 blows, I want to know why. It might be a simple tuning issue, or a sign that my springs are fatigued, They're only 100 years old, should be still fine, right? It seems like LG25's are the most common hammer I've seen in my area. We all know they won't compete with a BlueCow 150, they're not supposed to. If we can get some data compiled of how a rebuilt LG25 runs at 5 blows and 10 blows, from several different hammers around the universe, then LeRoy Backwoods can make an assumption that he's doing okay, or can start a dialog with the folks on the world wide inner-tube about what he can do to get close to the median. There's already been some talk about modern hammers running below what's posted. There's more clear thinking brain machines on this forum than I've seen anywhere else. Throw it out there, let's get your machine tuned up and get the shop running at its peak. Folks have been whining about the choice of materials. Let's face it, hot rolled square is a crap shoot. The reality is, if we have to forge a handrail, we're going to use hot rolled mat'l. I don't see the beauty in forging lead cubes, because we don't make railings from lead cubes. No matter how bad your chunk of hot roll square is, if it's at a near welding heat, it will deform under your flat dies. If it's 20% worse than what's posted here, let's pick the collective brain, and get your die clearance, air pressure, etc. figured out. There should'nt be any glory, testoserone, or anything else included. If you don't have 2 inches of flat die available, or can't approach a welding heat, don't post your results. Well Mike, The genie is out of the bottle. I would expect hammer makers to crow about a good showing,(don't throw meat to a tiger and ask him not to eat it) A good consumer would take into account that brute force isn't everything.......................mb Just one more blurb. I've got three pressure guages on the same air supply and not one of them reads the same.......but they're in the ball park......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuge Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Gotta agree. On my hammers i bet theres about 500 tippy taps for every big honkin' wallup. Its nice to know you're in the ballpark but to pursue the ratings game seems a bit vulgar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.F. Thumann Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Mike, It's weird that you mention guys comparing similar make/model hammers to see if they are tuned correctly, because I just did the power hammer test with my newly re-built Fairbanks Model D, 125 head. I got : 5 Blows: .605" 10 Blows: .328" I duped the tests three times, and the numbers came out ballpark the same. That's at a dull/dirty yellow color. I noticed that when the bars are at mid-orange temp that the results were about .410 for 10 blows, n .605" for 5 blows, so the guys who have hotter forges can def. skew the results a bit (i.e. my forge can't reach blinding yellow/white temp). The hammer has a re-machined pitman bearing, been cleaned, gib/face plate machined to tighten it up, etc. Just to mess around I put a piece of 1x3.5 inchx 10" long in the forge and broke it down on edge to about four ft long 3/4x3/4 in two heats. Is that good? I have nothing to compare it to, since this is my first hammer. Before I get down from my soap box, I'd like to mention that I've noticed a few things about the mech hammers: 1) Most guys who are running mech hammers of a larger size (100lbs and up), seem to be running them incredibly slow for the model/size they have, i.e. it looks like the front drive plate is stirring taffy when they are running them full out. My hammer is currently running 260 BPM, anyone else who has a model D running that fast/(slow?)? 2) The height on the pitman is incredibly important, the sweet spot on this hammer is approx. 3/4" of range to get full-on, scary dumptruck hits. Beyond that range, either bigger or smaller stock, you have to adjust it, or you can't get the last 25% of force out of the hammer (I'm saying that in reference to the full-out hammer test). For working regular stuff, the pitman really doesn't have to be messed with. 3) A bunch of guys on the forum have mentioned that if you have a mech hammmer, that is should hit with the toggles dead level when it impacts the material (in reference to hammers that have dupont-style linkages). Hmmm........how do I say that I that's completely, utterly wrong without being offensive? Guess I just did I've noticed on my hammer that if the toggles are dead level on impact, the hammer is only giving about a 30% strength blow. I think the reason for that is that the toggles should be bowed down when the material is impacted, as this stores energy in the spring to rebound the hammer forcefully to aid in lifting it, as well as setting up a fast ocillation/harmonic in the spring. Makes it snap hard, and messing around with the pitman has proved this out on my hammer. Didn't mean turn this into a fairbanks thread, just wanted to let people know of my particular setup, and ask if people could dupe my results with their model D's, or get way better, n make me look like a horse's rear end P.S. the crank disk pin/pitman pin was only out 70% of the way when I ran the test, I guess I could push it to the outer edge for full power, and do a re-run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trinculo Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Sam, Thanks for keeping up this list updated. It was very helpful in making my choice when purchasing a power hammer(s). I'm curious if there is a reason you're not including the Big blue numbers posted recently? best, trin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Makes me a little uncomfortable to see such a huge difference between a Big Blu 155 from a user/owner and the factory. The dies certainly seem to be a factor. Be nice to compare apples to apples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trinculo Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 They (BB results) do seem a bit optimistic, which is why I asked the question in the first place. After hitting on several utility hammers (Phoenix, Bull, Iron Kiss100 and a home brew Kinyon ish) I sent Mr. Larson a deposit. I will be receiving my Iron Kiss #75 in the coming months. It will be my first power hammer and based on my limited experience and the feel of the hammers IK seemed like a good all around choice. My only buyer remorse is that I kinda wish I have gone for the #100 or #125 IK. Thanks to everyone here for sharing all the knowledge, as someone just getting started in Smithing this place has been an invaluable resource. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 well put Trin John's hammers are unusual in that, when buying a tool you think about the size you think you need then get the next size up, but that's not the case with John's hammers. John makes an amazing hammer I am lucky to call him friend and even luckier to get the chance to run one of his hammers once or twice a year :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Had a passing thought that it would be nice to have an independent authority where each manufacturer could send a hammer and the test could be run in an unbiased fashion. Run the test 10 times and average it out. One problem I see is: What pressure do you run the utility hammers at? It appears that many Big Blu's are operated at 175 psi and normal for an IronKiss is 100 psi. The other day I was using my IronKiss at 40 psi and smacking pretty good too! Many utilities won't even run at 40 psi. What would be fair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 get a psi number from each manufacturer, then average it? I VOLUNTEER!!!!! Even though my time is immensely valuable and in short supply, and at great personal risk of life and limb I volunteer to be the unbiased tester! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 How is it that in 11 pages of posting not one of you have mentioned how hot the dies were when the test was run? It has got to be a factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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