John Larson Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 John N invited me to give this test a go, so I tested one of my iron kiss octagon 100 pound hammers today. My dies on this machine are 2 3/4 wide, flat, with generous edge radius. I set the stroke to 9" of air space and the speed to about 175 bpm. I used the coal/coke forge and took the 1x1 HR A36 8" bars to welding heat. I had center punched the 2" point and laid that mark where the flat of the die started and the edge radius ended. The appearance was similar to that shown by others. The average for 5 blows was .586" and the 10-blow number was .360". I found some variation in the A-36, but maybe that is a non issue for us. I looked for a piece of pure iron but didn't have any 1x1 (grin). I have a 150 nearing completion so it will be a blast to try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Here is the latest list with John's IronKiss numbers added in.Best in 5 blows: Nazel 3B Say Mak 60KG Anyang 88# Sahinler 110# Say Mak 50KG IronKiss Octagon 100 Big Blu 155 MAX KA75 1909 MacGowan and Finnigan "Perfect" 80# Little Giant 25 Kane and Roach 85# Don S's Rusty hammer 34# Best in 10 blows Nazel 3B Say Mak 60KG Anyang 88# IronKiss Octagon 100 Sahinler 110# Big Blu 155 MAX Anyang 55# KA75 1909 MacGowan and Finnigan "Perfect" 80# Kane and Roach 85# Don S's Treadle Hammer 66# Don S's Rusty hammer 34# Little Giant 25# Thanks for weighing in John, it was a pleasure to meet you and try your hammer in Maryland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 As I was asked on another forum to post the numbers of thickness after each set of blows, I figured to post it here also.Best in 5 blows: Nazel 3B - .308 Say Mak 60KG - .320 Anyang 88# - .430 Sahinler 110# - .543 Say Mak 50KG - .583 IronKiss Octagon 100 - .586 Big Blu 155 MAX - .705 KA75 - .773 1909 MacGowan and Finnigan "Perfect" 80# - .825 Little Giant 25 - .873 Kane and Roach 85# - .877 Don S's Rusty hammer 34# - .906Best in 10 blows Nazel 3B - .155 Say Mak 60KG - .260 Anyang 88# - .300 IronKiss Octagon 100 - .360 Sahinler 110# - .397 Big Blu 155 MAX - .475 Anyang 55# - .545 KA75 - .565 1909 MacGowan and Finnigan "Perfect" 80# - .630 Kane and Roach 85# - .721 Don S's Treadle Hammer 66# -.780 Don S's Rusty hammer 34# - .832 Little Giant 25# - .835 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucegodlesky Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I did the test this morning on my Fairbanks A (50#) The 5 hit test was 11/16" 0.6875 the 10 hit test was9/16" 0.5625 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Budd Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 It would be interesting to see what the same 5 and 10 hit results are for the use of one's normal hand hammer? I doub't any of us could reduce a 1" bar to 0.3" in 5 blows, but I reckon lots could do the 0.9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucegodlesky Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Dave my arm hurts thinking about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisB Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 That could open up a hole new level of discussion. "He used a 8lb sledge.." "His anvil is 400lbs" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlpierson Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Anyone have an Anyang 33 to run this on? It'd be interesting to see how it compares to the other lighter hammers. The 88 certainly seems to be holding up its end of the competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I can try one later in the week. The only problem with the 33# is the die is only 2"x1" , I suppose If I lay the billet along the die it will fit :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Dave Budd: Fair point, but, and this is a big but, how long does it take to do 5 blows? 10 blows? Can you do it all day? It only takes a small amount of electricity to far out do our puny muscles. But it's still a fair point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Dave, Ill hold the stock for you and shout encouragment whilst you hit it! We can do it at Owens of Jacks next year (oh no, this could turn into a drunken who hits hardest comp!, can we use 1/2" square? , please???? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Budd Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 :D I'm not suggesting that we ditch power hammers and go back to hand forging. just thought it would be an interesting thing to see. Good to show off to girls on courses/at shows? Obviously we all (taken from another thread) wield 25lb hammers and lift anvils like they were feathers Believe me, if I could afford a power hammer I certainly would use it. I recently acquired a flypress and I've found myself using that for some of the drawing out that I have always done by hand. any labour saving is welcome John, I'm sure we both know what would happen if we did try anything like that at a Owen's or even worse Jack's! Absoulte carnage, lots of sweat, and Mr yarrow would end up in casualty again :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DClaville Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 noting wrong in swinging a big sledge hammer all day long does it a lot (still don't have a powerhammer) for drawing my damascus and thick steel out to blade stock hmm reminds me a mate comes over this weekend and we will be making damascus two days out. one day at the sledge each I am glad to see this test and find the 25kg/55 anyang doing okay. i will hopefully get one at the start of next year Cheers DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) I wish I could get a job swinging a sledge all day! For some reason I have an unnatural desire to do it....any time I get the chance. It was brought up on another forum, this test in in no way a judge of how GOOD a power hammer is, just hitting hard is not what a power hammer is all about. Owen Bush and John N brought up that power without control is just about useless, control is a MAJOR part, the ability to tap lightly as well as lay a HUGE stomp on the metal is critical. Longevity and ability to get replacement parts is another key element to buying a powerhammer. Efficiency is also another required thought, how many HP does it take to run your hammer? A 4HP motor powering a self contained hammer equal if not better to a 10HP compressor powering an air hammer is something to consider. Remember, all things to consider when considering buying/buying a powerhammer. Edited June 3, 2009 by ApprenticeMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I can try one later in the week. The only problem with the 33# is the die is only 2"x1" , I suppose If I lay the billet along the die it will fit You could cut a 1" cube and weld a handle to it. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philip in china Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Mr. Hofi, Is that 25Kg Anyang the one piece hammer? I am hoping to take delivery of one very soon. What adjustments or tuning should I do to it before I run it? Do you have any tips to help me please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesrjohnson Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 One thing that is apparent is that you have to be careful in looking at the "poundage" rating of hammers in judging the hitting power of hammers. There are some smaller hammers that will out pound much heavier ones. I have to agree with Sam and others that what is most important is the controllability of the hammer. I have enclosed pictures of some bookends that I forged out a couple of months ago. The material was 3 by 5" stock. The first bookends were forged in 2 heats. The bookends that were forged down to about 1/8" on the edge was done in 3 heats. All of this was done on my Anyang 165. It is very infrequently that I use the full power of the hammers that I use. I probably spend more time with controlled, well placed (or I hope they are) hits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewOC Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Here is another squishing result, one blow.http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f82/my-100-ton-fly-press-11998/index2.html#post116657 I know its not a 'hammer' as such, but great for the chart, ya? Andrew O'C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jura T Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I just made the test with my russian hammer (50 kg, 5.5 kw motor). I don't have any 1" square, so I took some 20mm square and upset it. It was the first to me to upset anything with a power hammer, so it was actually nice to try that as well. I only did test with 5 blows with the result of .453" The bar moved a bit (~0.2") before the last two hits so let's say the result is 0.460". Sam, are we getting results for 33 lb Anyang any time soon?:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I finished up a 150 pound Iron Kiss and gave the test a go. The 5 blow number is .412" and the 10 blow number is .272". I used A36 1x1 just like before. Now having done the test and reflecting on it, I'm not so sure it proves a lot. Others have expressed that control trumps brute force, and I totally agree. Virtually none of my customers has ever expressed interest in the brute force aspect this test highlights. Everyone is concerned about control for jobs like tapering a table leg, punching, etc. I see in the test results an approximate segregation of self-containeds and utility hammers, at least enough to convince me that self-containeds have better air flow volumetric efficiency at full treadle. Generally speaking, the more air pumped through a hammer at full treadle, the more work done. I've built self-containeds, studied the concept intensely, and think I know why this is the case. And I pretty much know how to increase the volumetric efficiency of my utility hammers. The air cushion spears in the air cylinders have to be custom made larger so that the corresponding ports can be larger. Most of the other pieces of the air flow system can be acquired off the shelf. Whether or not that change in utility hammer volumetric efficiency would bring about test equality is uncertain. Movement in that direction is very likely, but there are other factors to consider. Watching operation of old steam hammers do single blows suggests to me that a utility hammer could be made superior to a self-contained for this kind of test. For what its worth, I set out to produce the best utility hammer on the planet. Now that this test is part of the public record I feel compelled to step up my R&D. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Clemens Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 It would be interesting to see what the same 5 and 10 hit results are for the use of one's normal hand hammer? I doub't any of us could reduce a 1" bar to 0.3" in 5 blows, but I reckon lots could do the 0.9 Dave, I decided to give my hand hammer and sledge a try. Posted the results in a new thread:http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f57/biologically-powered-hammer-test-12762/#post119376 Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imagedude Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Blacker 5 hits 0.79 10 hits 0.67 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Frank A asked me to run the test with his Iron Kiss Octagon125. The 5 blow # is .411 and the 10 blow # is .260. That is more than 50% better than the 100's and the 150's results averaged. I just looked at the original post on page 1 and I was surprised. I've reported flattening 3" at the ends of the 1x1 sticks and not the 2" called for in the test. That makes a big difference. The Iron Kiss results are therefore uniformly understated. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankA Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Can't wait to test it myself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike-hr Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 I agree that controllability is most likely more important than all out squishing power. I have some issues with this statement that I hope to qualify. My old mechanical hammer has, I admit, poor control compared to a new Say Ha, Sahinler, Anyang, etc. I can still put out fair work on my old hammer, I got used to it's personality, we get along fine together. What this test can do, other than polarize folks that sell new hammers, is give the using public a chance to see if their individual hammer is doing as good as it could. If we got 10 folks with 50# Little Giants to log their results, and someone sees that their individual setup is 20 percent less effective than the norm, they might have cause to check the spring and toggle arms for excessive wear. This could hypothetically increase productivity, and maybe warn them of a potential safety breach. I got the opportunity to watch Tom Clark tune a new hammer he delivered on the west coast a while back. He had his amp meter out, was watching what power it drew during use, and made some mystical adjustments that made the hammer sing like an angel. I don't think this is all about which hammer thumps the hardest, it's about how your individual hammer does in the field, and if it's not up to par, there are some of the finest brains around the world hanging around here that could help you to get somewhere in the middle. Carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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