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Damascus vs pattern welded


Brian Evans

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This has been bothering me, it probably shouldn't but it does.

There is a difference between Damascus steel (wootz steel) and pattern welded steel. I have seen a lot of posts here and all over the internet that use the two terms interchangeably. Damascus steel historically was a superior steel to anything that was available (spring steel included). The original process of making Damascus steel was lost but seemingly has been found again. So getting the terms correctly is important in my opinion.

Fun fact, real Damascus steel has almost double the carbon content that spring steel has and during the steel making process carbon nanotubes are formed.

I am curious if anyone else has the same problem with the terminology.

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Well 800 years ago vs today the diffrence was simple damascus was steel from the area around damascus which is also known as wootz or crucible steel that we think was produced somwhere in persia aka modern day iran and traded pound for pound for gold at the time this was as close to a homogenious clean steel alloy as you would get everything else was pattern welded to some extent to make up for deficenties in infiorior metal that way you would have less chance of an invisible to the naked eye flaw causing a point of failure in a blade

 

if the ancients ever saw 3 tons of 5160 spring stock just lying around they would have not only gawked at how bad xxxx a steel it was but probably fought a war over it 

even if wootz steel has nano tubes i have heard no evidence that this helps much it is still domthing between a modern 1075 and 1095 or maby a white paper steel but on ghe same token they where inpressed because here you have a single ingot weaighing 2 1/2 pounds or so that is all steel unlike a bloomery that gave you a mix of steel and other alloys mostly wroght iron and pig iron 

i work in a modern steel buisness where i regularly  handle 2 ton plates that would have caused a war 800 years ago because they are one pure alloy through snd through 

look how far we have come baby look how far we have come

Nothing drives home the scale of modern steel production like standing next to a stack of 10" x 8' x 12' plate steel

long story short we pattern weld nowadays because it is pretty not because it improves funtion 

if you want to have a blade the ancients will drool over pick one of the modern superalloys and grind to shape ht and watch it cleave through damascus steel proper 

I know this post will start a war but i am ok with that 

i used to believe in ancient super steel too then i learnd modern metalergy and saw the light

enjoy

du

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Naw, Du you nailed it nicely, Biggun just put it in words of minimal syllables. State of the art and cutting edge are transients. Just think what the neighbors thought of the first Mad Genius who pulled off riding a horse.  Greatest thing since the pointy stick you know!

Frosty The Lucky.

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2 hours ago, Brian Evans said:

Fun fact, real Damascus steel has almost double the carbon content that spring steel has and during the steel making process carbon nanotubes are formed.

Nope. 

You are aware that forge welding lowers the carbon content of steel, right? And youre also aware that they had to do a LOT of welding to homogenize the steel? You are implying that "real" damascus had well over 100 points of carbon? That is simply incorrect. 

I also have my doubts about your whole carbon nanotube theory. A nanotube cannot form inside of a solid. That would imply a void in the center of said tube. 

Please cite your sources. If it seems like im being rude, i apologize, i dislike misinformation. 

Du, imagine if we gave a 14th century smith a properly heat treated stock removal D2 knife. They would literally drool. 

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Frosty, you guys have pointy sticks in Alaska? If you ever come down here I'll trade you for some of my magic sparking rocks! To the op, yeah, the terminology misuse bugs me too. It gets tiresome explaining it  but thanks for bringing it up. Maybe I'll start directing people here instead of watching them blank out when they find out the answer to the question they asked wont fit in a text.

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Agreed. The idea that the ancient peoples of the world had a better understanding of any field of science than modern man is a fallacy through and through. 

Example: imagine trying to explain chromium and stainless steel to the greatest smith in all of Bohemia. Good luck!

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That pretty much naild it will 

 

but i am sure thor knows all the finer points about the formation of vandium carbides in a iron matrix 

ok thst line was just total bull excrement but it sounded good 

 

Show him that d2 blade first he wil listen very carefully even if he dose not understand a word of it

 

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Yes, his skills at solutionizing carbides are legend. 

While speaking to the metallurgist at work the other day, i was shown a piece of steel that was explosively welded to a piece of aluminum... Steel.... To aluminum.

Needless to say, it made me all giddy. But im sure Vulcan has better tricks up his sleeve. 

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A while ago someone posted articles here with some high end scientific analysis of Damascus steels showing there were carbon nanotube structures. Fullerenes and tubes are common in soot so I suppose. Doesn't mean it was by design.

Frosty The Lucky.

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That would intrest me as well but it would support my earlier position that nanotubes or  not it made no diffrence to the alloy at hand 

or i am sure we would  be using it now as we can make nanotubes preety easily nowadays 

it would make an intresting read if you have a link frosty

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It bugs me too that Damascus has come to mean PWS, but I've conceded. If I have to explain the difference between true damascus [wootz] and PWS  every time that I'm talking about PWS then I'm not communicating. Most people not involved in steel don't know what PWS is, but they know what you're talking about if you say damascus. The world knows PWS as damascus  and that's the way it is.  The truth is just an interesting side topic when you are not trying to communicate a characteristic of a piece of steel. 

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3 hours ago, Brian Evans said:

There is a difference between Damascus steel (wootz steel) and pattern welded steel. I have seen a lot of posts here and all over the internet that use the two terms interchangeably.

It used to bug me too, but then Thomas Powers (I think it was he) explained that the two terms have been used interchangeably for several hundred years in many old blacksmithing books.

I think most people will understand that you're referring to the "original" Damascus steel if you use "wootz" to denote it.

If you haven't seen it yet, Daniel C has a drool-worthy thread where he has been creating a reasonable facsimile of wootz steel.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/53084-first-crucible-steel-run-and-forging/

 

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I agree when i speak  to laymen i just cringe and say damascus so they will understand me 

 

As impressive as this is buzzkill i would argue that by the time that billet is hand forged into sword shape it will be 1095 ish in final carbon content or it would be too brittle to make a good sword carbon is not evrything if it was we would see alloys listing 180 points of carbon in common useage today as we can control the process to a tee and a 35 ton heat comes out exactly as what we want

 

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Wootz steel,

I suggest that IFI metallurgy enthusiasts try the following very good synopsis in Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel

Wootz was produced in a small region in Tamil Nadu India. And later, also, in areas of Sri Lanka. The first wooth dates back to more than 2,500 years. And at least 2400 years ago for the Sri Lanka product.

Wootz was traded to China, Arabia, and Rome. The Romans called it 'Seric iron' and thought that it was made in China. They were mistaken.

Wootz seems to have been made by a number of different processes over the years. Check the above cited Wikipedia article, for details

It was extensively traded as early as Alexander The Great's campaign in India.

And was then widely traded in Europe and Arabia

Wootz was characterized as a high carbon steel.

Arab traders introduced it, extensively, into Arabia. And the swordsmiths, especially in Damascus Syria, made legendary swords from wootz. But that Wootz came from India and Sri Lanka. (Ceylon). The Damascene swordsmiths did not make it themselves but traded for it.

Please do not use the term wootz in relation to pattern welded steel. The term Damascus IS recognized for that steel.

Try the Wikipedia article it is succinct and fascinating.

SLAG.

 

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1 hour ago, SLAG said:

Please do not use the term wootz in relation to pattern welded steel. The term Damascus IS recognized for that steel.

this is what I was trying to say bothers me. I have noticed that some people are talking before they research things. It is all a learning process though.

 

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5 hours ago, Will W. said:

Please cite your sources. If it seems like im being rude, i apologize, i dislike misinformation. 

Carbon nanotube article https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/11/061116-nanotech-swords.html&ved=0ahUKEwiL_IOOx9vXAhVH4IMKHSJOAh0QFggpMAE&usg=AOvVaw39LXSR4JucgEagLKE5mGCL you can also do a quick look on Wikipedia like SLAG  said. 

 

 

Spring steel carbon content .5-1%

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.totalmateria.com/page.aspx%3FID%3DCheckArticle%26site%3Dkts%26NM%3D371&ved=0ahUKEwjVp--kyNvXAhWmzIMKHZa-AOQQFggzMAM&usg=AOvVaw2Dzkq0mdvhTsbb1UGe6Zsz

Wootz steel carbon content 1-2% 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2008/09/27/carbon-nanotechnology-in-an-17th-century-damascus-sword/&ved=0ahUKEwjxwYrhx9vXAhWSyIMKHf5xAJcQFggpMAE&usg=AOvVaw3ChmdnJL-6bgtIi7mV9a8G

Here are some of my sources

 

7 hours ago, DuEulear said:

i used to believe in ancient super steel too then i learnd modern metalergy and saw the light

I'm not debating that we have better things now. 

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I agree i guess i got a little off topic it is annoying when you know the history but you just caint convince the yokel infront of you that they are speaking of two diffrent things

the ancient world did not have spring steel hence i thought you where comparing wootz to springsteel it is true it has a lower carbon content by desighn it makes it less likely to fracture under stress

 

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14 minutes ago, DuEulear said:

it is annoying when you know the history but you just caint convince the yokel infront of you that they are speaking of two diffrent things

 The only people that you will ever convince are the ones who are open to learning, and we certainly don’t encourage openness by acting superior and snobbish. Sometimes, the best you can do is throw out a tidbit (something like, “… pattern-welded steel, sometimes incorrectly called Damascus steel…”) and see if they rise to the bait. If they do, great; then you can talk history and metallurgy.  If they don’t and you go ahead and firehose them with your superior knowledge anyway, the only opinion you will have changed will be theirs of you, and not for the better.

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Thank you for the sources.

I relent on the nanotube issue. Seems they do indeed have hard eveidence of that. Its interesting, and ive honestly never heard about it. Seems i was quick to jump to conclusions. 

I still dont beleive that the wootz blades had up to 2% carbon in the *finished product*. It very well may have had that much when the steel was delivered to the smith, but repetetive forge welding would reduce the content by a whole lot. That much carbon may be alright for a razor blade, but not a sword. The article seems to be inconclusive as to whether or not that was the content of the finished blade or the pre forged billet.

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