Damascus vs pattern welded

[D.IVO]

20 hours ago, Will W. said:

Agreed. The idea that the ancient peoples of the world had a better understanding of any field of science than modern man is a fallacy through and through. 

Example: imagine trying to explain chromium and stainless steel to the greatest smith in all of Bohemia. Good luck!

Not only did they had better understanding they also built stuff we cannot replicate today with modern tech. Ex: Giza Pyramides.

The technology was lost so no one can say wich is better.

 

 

 

 

[Brian Evans]

This is one fascinating example of something that the romans invented that was only developed recently (Again). A color changing goblet.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/this-1600-year-old-goblet-shows-that-the-romans-were-nanotechnology-pioneers-787224/

[ThomasPowers]

Yes wootz can have excessive amounts of carbon in it tied up in carbides with a lower carbon "matrix" (For a modern "example" look at how D2 works being die steel with very high carbon levels.)

Bluesman7; it disturbs me that you are using the term Denver for your location when it was called something else way before the Europeans arrived!  Please worry about that inaccuracy first. Historically terms were often sloppily applied.  For example nowadays we have differing terms for differing types of swords with fine granularity; but most historic documents just called them "swords".

Another thing to mention is that not all crucible steel was wootz historically; this is well covered in Dr Feuerbach's thesis "Crucible Steel in Central Asia" and also in the extended thesis "Early Iron and Steel in Sri Lanka" Gillian Juleff.

Having seen the results and discussed their experiments with Al Pendray (I volunteered to be his demo assistant at Quad-State one year) of the Pendray and Verhoeven research team I would have no issue with calling their material wootz and  using it to explain earlier examples and their processes.  (*Expensive* stuff to make and work as it's tendency to cottage cheese requiring special care and need to be worked at low temps to prevent solutioning of the carbides)

Note too that historical wootz was often noted for being brittle at cold temps and so not a great materials for weapons in Northern Europe.  Crucible steel at a  "reasonable" carbon content would be a wonder metal for the Medieval smith.

As noted "Damascus" was a trade nexus for trade between the east and Western Europe and so the name was applied to the material.

And to address another common  urban legend: No; the Europeans did not come up with pattern welding trying to copy the wootz steel swords they were exposed to in the Crusades.  The heyday of pattern welding in Europe was several *centuries* before the first crusade and was dying out by the year 1000; charcoal fumes did not confer power to see the future!

And Pattern welding was known and used in the same areas and times that wootz and other crucible steel was used. IIRC there is even an extant blade forged from chevrons of wootz and pattern welded stock; (Yes it's shown in Damaszener Stahl, Manfred Sachse; I won't give the plate as I have the German version and do not know if the English translation follows the same numbering...)

[JPH]

Ohhh K.  I wanted to stay out of this but I can't.

Pattern Welding is Pattern Welding and Crucible Steel is Crucible steel and at one point they were both described by the same term: "Damascus Steel" ...You are fighting centuries of folks using this term to describe both of these materials and frankly..the earliest "Modern" reference I can readily find that used the term "Damascus Steel" to describe Pattern Welding was from JJ Perret in the 18th Cent... (That man was AMAZING!! His "Liberty" bar is mind blowing..)..

So the way I look at it you have "Crucible Damascus"  for the Wootz. Bullat, Jahuar folks...and "Mechanical Damascus" for the Pattern Welded crew. That would be, at l;east as I see it...the easiest way to end this "controversy" ..if ya ask me..which you didn't so take it for what it's worth...  Besides..What do I know about this stuff anyways?? I am just an old Hammerhead..

(I am att a photo of some stuff (that I made from raw ore here in S. NV.).. that was suppose to be a straight Bloomery Steel a couple years back that I hammered into one of them there Sam-Mary swords...For some reason I got a "Wootz" like structure on the unhardened portions of the blade..It is NOT alloy banding...so I am still trying to figure this one out..This is a Kogarasu Maru style of  Kat...the hardest part was that arrowhead shape at the end..believe it or not..

So tell me how would you all "classify" this puppy?? It's Bloomery steel with a "Wootz" pattern..

JPH

[ThomasPowers]

The "it's not alloy banding" is what throws me as that would have been my guess off the top of my head.

[Steve Sells]

Almost anyone else I would have to ask " not alloy banding, are you sure?" but not here...

[Will W.]

3 hours ago, Steve Sells said:

Almost anyone else I would have to ask " not alloy banding, are you sure?" but not here...

And the "Most Accurate Sentence" award goes to... 

JPH: i know this wasnt your intention when you posted the pics, but thats a very pretty looking blade. It looks like a double hamon. I always love seeing your work. 

[JPH]

Hello: 

At first glance I thought it was alloy banding but after looking at it under magnification I realized that there are some rather funky dendrites in there as well..I have shown this one to a couple of other folks and we did a sparky on it and it comes back that there are some rather interesting trace elements in it...the one that got us was the Ti.. The area where I got the ore (a iron rich area just a tad down wind from TiMet) must of been contaminated with TI due to the processing plant...which could possibly be the culprit,,no matter..it makes for a very interesting piece either way

JPH

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

Black sand often contains a lot of Ti due to rutile content.

[JPH]

Brother Thomas..

Very true but I used toasted iron ore not black sand on this...very interesting to work from the rock vs the sand... They since closed down that  whole area as the EPA had a conniption fit and had TiMet remove 100's of truck loads of desert topsoil (if you  can call it that)  to clean the area up due to contamination..plus there is also a chloride plant right down the road a tad as well...  There use to be a rocket fuel place out here but that blew up a while back...

JPH

[ThomasPowers]

I drive past where the ASARCO smelter used to be here in El Paso on a regular basis. They are not kind to their environs... Luckily they are/were down river from my house and job.

Now for some of the folks with smelting interests but with less of a background: I would like to add in a warning about the black sand produced from gold mining:  much of it has been treated with mercury over the years and so is not a good ore for smelting.  (The scale produced during forging is an iron ore though!  Especially if you can keep it clean from dust and grinder residues!)

[Ric Furrer]

Jim, Do you have any information on the "Liberty Bar"? Photos or location of the bar?

There is not much work of Perret on the net (his books are on google PDF).

 

Ric

[JPH]

Rick:

I am not certain about this but the last I heard it was in the French National Museum...I will see if I can run it down. Mons. Perret  did amazing work and this piece actually had the French Motto of "Liberte, Equalite, Fraternite " spelled out... Talk about pattern control to the 100th power...

JPH

[Ric Furrer]

Which Museum (the French seem to call every museum the national museum)? I should be able to get a photo from the curator.

 

Ric

[JPH]

Rick:

I am already running that down.. just contacted my "French Connection".. heh heh heh..  

JJ Perret was an amazing craftsman indeed..

JPH

[Ric Furrer]

JJ Perret died in 1784.....five years before the revolution in 1789. The Motto of "Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite " seemed to originate during the revolution and adopted well after. Maybe someone did an etch, engraving or gilding over one of Perret's blades much later?

Now I really want to find the bar.

 

Ric

 

[nitrous]

On 11/25/2017 at 7:48 PM, Will W. said:

Agreed. The idea that the ancient peoples of the world had a better understanding of any field of science than modern man is a fallacy through and through. 

Example: imagine trying to explain chromium and stainless steel to the greatest smith in all of Bohemia. Good luck!

well, I am not sure that is true.

Many technical skills of the ancients have been lost and are not reproducible by the best of the best, modern (wo)men!  Many of the classic colored dyes of the ancient world are still only approximated by modern science. 

We still don't know, with certainty how the pyramids were built.  We certainly don't know how, to any degree of certainty how the ancients limited understanding of astronomy and mathematics could build Stonehenge. 

There are many things we can do that lead to information beyond our understanding.  Information, Knowledge and Wisdom are 3 very different things.

But having said that, and with only limited material sciences under my belt (was a physical chemist before medicine )  I don't doubt there are many metallurgical question from the past that are yet to be answered.  The "science of metal hardening" is far from settled.  We aren't nearly as smart as we think we are nor the ancients as uninformed as you might think.  

Take care,

Doug

 

On 11/26/2017 at 8:16 AM, JHCC said:

 The only people that you will ever convince are the ones who are open to learning, and we certainly don’t encourage openness by acting superior and snobbish. Sometimes, the best you can do is throw out a tidbit (something like, “… pattern-welded steel, sometimes incorrectly called Damascus steel…”) and see if they rise to the bait. If they do, great; then you can talk history and metallurgy.  If they don’t and you go ahead and firehose them with your superior knowledge anyway, the only opinion you will have changed will be theirs of you, and not for the better.

excellent summary of debate on the internet!  Thanks JHCC

 

[George N. M.]

Nitrous:  Our attitude to past knowledge is often expressed by "We are dwarves standing on the shoulders of giants."  This may have some validity but what is forgotten is that the dwarf can see further than the giant because he exceeds the giant's height.

And, yes, there are ancient technologies which we still do not understand such as Roman bichromic glass which is green in reflected light and red in transmitted light.  However, the Romans probably did not understand how it worked either.  They knew a technique and that it worked but did not know why in a modern scientific sense.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[SLAG]

Mr. JHCC,

Fire 'hosers' do not get much time,  esteem,  nor latitude on this forum.

I have not noticed many members that had a skill, or knowledge that at least one other member did not have.

And there are, often,  more often more than just one such person.

Mr. G. NM*., I believe that Sir Isaac Newton wrote the phrase, about giants and hangers on.

If he was a dwarf than I am a gerbil. 

"Pyrex" glass was invented sometime near the year 1 C.E.

The secret was lost for two thousand years.

  But, it was rediscovered in 1915. The element boron was used in the glass to drastically cut the coefficient of expansion.

Dr. Nitrous, there are ancient technologies that have not been elucidated yet. But they are not that many.  For example, the process for making Tyrian purple (from the Murex shellfish), was conclusively elucidated by scientists about 3 or 4 decades ago.

Dr. VanHoven, and master smith Al Pendrey recreated the process for making Damascus steel.  (i.e. Wootz),  about 16 years ago,  after it had been lost for 300 + years.

Yes empirical methods and serendipity, were responsible for most technological inventions / discoveries,  made before the seventeenth century the  But they are still of use today.

Science,  experiments,  and  theories, etc. are also invaluable, and are, increasingly,  in wide use now.

Regards gentlemen,

SLAG.

* Thanks for reminding me about bichromic glass. I'll be chasing down that technology shortly.

CORRECTION.

 Dr. Otto Schott invent borosilicate glass 22 years before the Corning Glass Co. did,   in 1893.

You can still get the Schott companies glass products  in Europe,  They call it "Duran".

Life is a learning experience.

[George N. M.]

Slag,  The proper term is "dichroic glass."  Look up the Lycurgus Cup in the British Museum.  Apparently, the technique involves a small amount of colloidal gold and silver introduced into the glass melt.  Corning Glass reproduced the effect experimentally but it does not seem to have been done commercially.  Too bad, since it is a really cool effect.  The display at the British Museum with alternating reflected and transmitted light is mesmerising.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[SLAG]

Mr. George NM,

Thank you for the correct term  "dichroic glass". Dyslexia tends to rear its ugly bottom when the SLAG is tired.

I used the term to review the phenomenon on the net. (mainly Wikki).

Great stuff.

Have a good evening folks,

SLAG.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

There is a link to that goblet/cup farther up the page...fascinating.