Matrikote over Kastolite

[MT Hammer]

Hi all,

Been here reading a lot, and now my first post.  I’m from Montana, and happy to greet you all and be here!

Between reading Mike Porter’s book and the long Forges 101 thread, I’m full to overflowing with info to build my first forge.

My plan was to coat the kaowool with Kastolite, and then finish it off with Matrikote for IR reflectivity.  But when I received the Matrikote, the label on the jar says that it should NOT be applied to castible refractory.  What is the reasoning here? Might the refractory not have enough adhesion?  Have some of you applied Matrikote over Kastolite with good results?

 

Thanks!

Scott

 

[Jasent]

I have done so. And to be honest heat up takes longer than just kastolite 30. But more mass should take longer. Recently my research has told me I should have used the matreikote under the kastolite 30. I can't say for sure as I have a lot of testing to do before I  change what I've been taught. Though as you say this is the instructions.  Personally I was happy with just the kastolite but. I may have been happier if I had put the matreikote under the kastolite. I can't say one way or the other but I as I have I can share what I've done and learned 

[Binesman]

I put matrikote on top of kastolite...heat up takes a few more minutes (i have added thermal mass this should happen) it gets hotter.  I can make sparklers with the matrikote i couldnt without it.  My forge holds its heat longer and once to temp holds heat with much less fuel.  On top of all that matrikote holds up to flux better the kastolite.  So please dont put it under put it on top.

[WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith]

I built a forge for a student several years ago.  After the Kast-0-Lite had cured I put a piece of 1" square in and fired the forge, timing how long it took to get to forging temps.  It took 11 minutes.  The next day I painted a coat of Metrikote over the KOL and it took 7 minutes.  Metrikote is an Infrared Reflective product.  How could it reflect if it is covered up.  The company that I get my supplies builds large furnaces and kilns and this is the way they use it.  I have been doing it this way for about 10 years.

Wayne

 

 

[TwistedCustoms]

I mixed my Metrikote thin, about the consistancy of melted ice cream. Painted it over k wool board and over a hard fire brick in the floor of a Whisper Mamma two burner. After coating the forge will go from a cold start with 5/8" square stock to forging heat in two minutes flat at 6psi. Once the forge warms up, after about 15 min of run time, recovery times are scary fast. I'll burn work pretty easy if I don't back off to 4psi once it warms up. I love!!! Metrikote. Paint it on top! NC Tool says my forge needs 10psi to weld. I never tried to weld in it before I coated it but I'm welding in it now @6-7psi. Manufactured forge and burner so results may vary but that's my experience with Metrikote.

[Frosty]

It isn't intended as a refractory liner, it's a kiln wash. A product designed to be the final barrier between the fire and what's in it and the liner. Thick is counter productive, think of it as paint or like an undercoat, it's there to protect and radiate heat back into the forge more efficiently. MIx it to a consistency between thick latex paint and country gravy. Spritz the liner with water then paint it on.

Easy peasy ad it works a treat.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

All good info; the best kind

[MT Hammer]

Thanks all. I thought I understood from all I had read that a main application was to be an IR reflective wash over refractory.  So I was surprised by the directions.  I feel I can safely ignore those and follow the advice given here.  I’ll post some photos and results once I get the forge built and used a bit.

Thanks!

[DanB]

I am interested

 

[Binesman]

What you need to know dan?  And welcome aboard.

[Rcforge]

Has anyone had experience putting Metrikote over ITC 100 in a well used forge? I could rough the surface first, I guess.

[Mikey98118]

On 11/19/2017 at 4:41 PM, WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith said:

How could it reflect if it is covered up.

Sound question; but the answer is, not as well, but ssstill plenty strong. The whole idea of infrared "reflectors" is salesman's hooey.All of these products actually work as light re-emitters. It is just barely legitimate to label them as "heat reflectors." But of course, the average salesman just can't stomach exact truth.

[Binesman]

Matrikote is just dirty itc100 so not much.  itc 100 99.4<%zirconium.  Matrikote90 70<%zirconium+dirt.but in theory if you were to put a castable on top of it that worked by induction heat (like misou) it may make a difference.  not sure it's enough to make it worth it. but <shrug> maybe it will far exceed my expectations.

[Mikey98118]

I think the main virtue of Matrikote is as a sealant coating. All of these coatings have similarities, and differences; all of them more ore less work. It is only a question about whether or not any particular product works best for your needs

[Binesman]

I am intrigued by the potential but I don't have time to test it.  If you put a nice zirconium glaze and heat it to truly glaze.  then covered it in a dense refractory designed to absorb heat and transfer by induction if you could in theory end up with a very hot forge.   

[Frosty]

Can somebody please post a link from Allied Mineral or the MSDS that says there is ANY zirconium in the Matrikote line of products? I've looked and can't find it as an ingredient. 

If it contained zirconium it would say so as there are health factors regarding zirconium approaching silica. 

There was a pretty long thread discussing placing zirconium in a deep layer of the liner and I don't think anyone has done any testing so the results were opinion rather than empirical evidence. 

Zirconia is a poor conductor and has a very high melting point, our forges fall short of it's vitrification temp by half. A member here was experimenting with a refractory consisting of around 97% bentone clay and 3% =/+ zirconium. Using a ceramics kiln he was vitrifying the bentone as the matrix to contain the zirconium.

The problem with ITC 100 is the binder; unless they've changed the formula it's around 70% zirconium and 30% kaolin clay. It doesn't vitrify and tends to flake and or rub off over time. 

Before I knew better I bought and applied ITC 100 to my variable geometry shop forge. The only place it stayed attached. . . mostly, is the roof. I applied it directly to the buttered Kaowool at a thin consistency so it penetrated the fibers well. I still have the half can of left overs some 20+ years later.

I've experimented with bentonite drill mud and it fires to a ceramic-like consistency in my forge. I went to the point of putting a dollop of 75% zirconium and 25% bentonite, directly on a piece of kiln shelf that was at high yellow heat in the forge. It stuck to the kiln shelf to the point I couldn't scrape it clean after chipping the foamed up dollop off. 

The flame face in my next forge will be 97% zirconium x 3% bentonite applied to the cured Kastolite 30 inner liner as an IR reradiating final surface. I'll apply it in multiple thin coats at a consistency of latex house paint. 

I'm very interested in how it foamed testing and will probably play around and see. It'd be really nice to find an easy to make, inexpensive high temp insulating refractory. The 50lb. sack of bentonite, Baroid by name, cost around $25.  

Frosty The Lucky.

[pnut]

MATRIKOTE 90AC.PDFMATRIKOTE 90AC.PDF

No zirconium unless it's a proprietary ingredient.

Pnut

[Mikey98118]

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

consisting of around 97% bentone clay and 3% =/+ zirconium.

Amounts reversed?

[Frosty]

Yes, I sure did. That should've read, 97% zirconium x 3% +/- bentone. 

Used to be I could type almost as fast as I could compose. Now I can't typo even half that fast. <sigh> 

Good catch Mike, thanks.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Binesman]

I've been playing with a lot of compounds lately apparently I mixed one up.  sorry bout that.  Still intrigued about an IR under an induction type refractory

 

[Frosty]

Me too. I'm always interested in new ideas.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Binesman]

give me some time frosty.  I'm working on a project that is going to require me to build a number of forges over the next few months.  No reason I can't throw down some zircopax under a layer of kastolite on one of them.  unless someone else gets to it sooner.   Actualy I think I will use mizou it is more of a heatsink.  Is there a better 3k refractory for this purpose?  I think mizou is the most dense I've used.

 

[Frosty]

Sounds good I'll be watching for what you learn. 

I have a question about Mizzou, it's come up in our club and it seams none of us here know. How flux resistant is Mizzou? I know it's temp rating is more than high enough and it's tough as concrete but I don't know how it reacts to borax fluxes?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Binesman]

So I have been playing with different mixtures etc.  Nothing large scale yet I have a lot of irons in the fire right now.  however the best combination I have found so far.  Pure zircopax put on 5 to 6 layers letting each layer dry for at least 6 hours before putting on the next layer.  then put on a 1/4' layer of dense refractory (I have been using a mizzou) then put on a single coat of 60%zircopax30%kaolin10%boron(this allows the zirconium to actually vitrify).  I've been putting this on top of firebricks and seeing what worked better to heat mats.  This formula got me roughly 14% faster to temp heat.  These numbers are all anecdotal I did not do any scientific testing.  As for your question to how mizzou holds up to flux.  I see little difference between it and kastolite.  however the thermal mass is a lot higher.

[Frosty]

Boron? All I'm getting in searches are pictures for some reason so I still don't know what it is or what it does. I do see a lot of pictures of uses for Boron Nitride but no text. I'll see what happened to the settings on my comp, maybe a restart will do it but that's for later. Have you looked at the MSDS? I haven't yet but I make a habit of it when using something new.

I'm no fan of kaolin in kiln washes, it's too hard to get to vitrify so it stays a dusty coating rather than a durable matrix. Maybe the boron is doing the binding? Maybe leave out the kaolin and just use the boron? 

I'm just brainstorming ideas don't know, my level of expertise in chemistry barely gets out of the kitchen but I can follow a recipe. 

From reading I think you'd have to be running oxy propane in your forge to get zircopax to fuse. However it takes very little binder to do the job, 3% bentonite works a treat as shown by an Iforge member's experiments. 

Thanks for posting, you have my attention. 

Frosty The Lucky.