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Kast-O-Lite 30


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  • 3 weeks later...

Hard refractory provides armor against both heat, flame and mechanical damage being poked and scraped by work going in and out. Kast-O-Lite 30 works well in around a 1/2" layer but some folks like 1/4",  others folks like more.

Approximate mixing is 1.2 gallons per 55 pounds or 2.79 ounces per pound.

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  • 2 weeks later...

From Frosty

The best cure method according to the maker is to treat it just like hydraulic concrete. It water SETS, it does NOT DRY. These are two entirely different things. Read up on working, and curing a patio or shop floor. Portland cement, concrete and Kastolite set and cure very closely to the same in time and steps. Kastolite refers to concrete procedures as THE way to cure Kastolite for maximum strength and temperature rating. 

Except for water % details the comparison is across the boards close enough to the same as to be interchangeable. 

So, when it sets close it up in a 100% humidity atmosphere for up to 7 days. We do NOT need a max strength cure, we aren't subjecting it to the kinds of forces temps and atmospheric changes a commercial forging or scrap furnace does.

Frosty The Lucky.

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  • 1 year later...

This is not refractory cement.  It is refractory insulation.  Manufacturer does not list IR reradiation characteristics, but it is lighter colored than Rutlands (which shouldn't be used as a forge lining in any case) so will likely reflect more IR.  Material is also 56% alumina, which is also a good indicator IMHO.  Data sheet appended.

kast-o-lite-30-li-plus-data.pdf

 

Maximum Temperature 3000°F

Material Required 90 lb/ft3

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Welcome aboard KingCrowleyInc., glad to have you. If you put your general location in the header you might discover how many members live within visiting distance and a LOT of info is location specific. Do you have a preferred form of address we can use? Your logon is pretty cumbersome and if we have to make something up, you'll be stuck with it.:P

Furnace cements and mortars are NOT USEFUL FLAME FACE FURNACE LINERS. They are formulated to bond masonry together and are very short lived in contact with flame. Propane especially is VERY chemically aggressive and more so as a 3,000 f. flame. 

We're not harshing on you but terms can be critical. This instance is as significant as the difference between gasoline and diesel when you fill your vehicle. Using mortar or cements as forge liners is an urban myth almost as utterly wrong as the one about using plaster of Paris and sand, that last can be dangerously BAD. 

We're doing our muddling best to help get a uniform terminology in use around the world.

Frosty The Lucky. 

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  • 5 months later...
  • 4 weeks later...

Copied from another thread


Frosty

Kastolite is NOT easy to mix, you can't just stir it, it'll set up before it's thoroughly mixed. I knead it in a stainless pan with a heavy stainless serving spoon and all but do hand stands on it in the process. It's the crushed aggregate that makes it such a PITA, the broken particles don't slide past each other, they catch and key together. Visualize a sack of marbles compared to a sack of jacks and how much different they'd move.

I had to go a LITTLE over recommended moisture content but we don't need maximum characteristics from the finished refractory. Just don't get carried away with the water, just a LITTLE.

Nothing will make it spread smoothly, that'd be like rolling dominos, it just isn't in the cards.


JHCC

I also do my mixing in a pan, but I measure everything out by weight first, then sprinkle the water over the entire surface, and finish by chopping it together with a drywall knife. That gives a uniform distribution of moisture throughout, and I know I have the proportions correct. 

Frosty

KOL does NOT dry! It cures like concrete it needs a time at 100% humidity, 24 hrs. Minimum, 7 days for full strength.

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  • 3 months later...

Short answer: use basic math to determine the volume of each of the cylinders of different material you want to install, then use the installed material density from the manufacturer in the case of the Kastolite or the material volume in the case of the ceramic fiber (wool) to figure out how much you need.  Add 20% for a safety factor and bob's your uncle.

Even shorter answer: your forge interior size is around either 939 cubic inches or 704 cubic inches, depending on whether you cap the ends with the 2" of wool and 1/2" of castable, as you noted.  This is likely too large a forge, you should consider a redesign (though for full disclosure, my forge is currently right around that size also, but I use a commercial burner).

Long answer (for ease I'm assuming cylinders with flat ends, though I'm aware that most propane tanks have hemispherical ends) : 

For the wool you will need (2) end caps, each around 12 x 12.  The wool typically comes in 24" widths, so 2' for those assuming you are using 1" thickness.  The first layer (assuming you are still using 1" thickness) you need around 40" of length.  For the second layer your diameter decreases from 12.73" to 10.73".  This means the circumference decreases to 33.7", so you need that length for the second layer.  Added up you need around 24" + 40" + 34"= 98".  With a 20% safety factor that is 118", or just under 10'.

The volume of Kastolite you need I will base on a 3/4" thickness for safety.  Again the end caps are now 8.73" in diameter.  This gives a volume of around 45 cubic inches for each cap, or 90 cubic inches for both.  The forge walls will be the cylinder formed by the inner surface of the wool minus the open forge interior cavity.  So a cylinder of 8.73" diameter less one of 7.2" diameter.  Lets figure the wall length is 20" - 4" - 2"= 14".  This gives a volume of (60 - 41) x 14 = 266 cubic inches.  Add to the 90 cubic inches in a final requirement of 356 cubic inches.  Per the note above, the material needed is 90 lbs/ cubic foot. 356 cubic inches is 0.206 cubic feet.  So you need around 18.5 lbs.  I would buy extra for doors and the like, so around half a typical 50# bag.

Note: I hope from this you can do the math yourself after redesigning a smaller forge.

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That lines it out pretty completely Truck Driver. 

Welcome aboard, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you'll have a chance of hooking up with a member living within visiting distance. 

Don't build your burners by watching online videos most have no clue. There are proven designs with plans pinned in the propane forge/burner section here.

Frosty The Lucky.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I've been reading and I have been working too hard on "cool steel".  My forge is in need of a makeover.  2 vertical burners, 8x8x18" rectangular tube.  I have to run it too long before it gets best temp inside.  IE:  I'm working a set of tongs and I have maybe 45 seconds to work steel before it looses color...

The fiber blanket insulation is semi-hard, but is NOT shiny and doesn't glow as much as other forges.  Don't know whether to apply voluminous quantity of Castolite around entire interior or whether I should completely reline.  Existing fiber insulation is about 80%.  I purchased this forge (1st) from eBay vendor a couple of years ago, and it has been ok for getting started.

I want to rebab my gas forge ASAP.  Primary purpose for this forge will be blades.

I am welding a coal fired table and installing a redi-made FIRE-POT & electric blower.  I know the coal will be a lot easier for me during the summer months, as radiant heat from gas is too a LOT with sun and 95 + deg.

I want to support and will purchase items from a IFI.  PLEASE PM so I can get what I need.  CASTOLITE, etc.

 

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Losing the fire brick floor will help a LOT. Making thermal baffle "doors" will help even more. There is no good reason to blow the heat fro the burners out the wide open ends. You only need enough exhaust opening to prevent excess back pressure on the burners. The longer the fire stays IN the forge the more energy will be transferred to the liner where it will be re radiated to your work. 

I'd just make another forge, that one needs a rebuild, it's too long and narrow. The interior surface doesn't need to be shiny it needs to be robust to withstand: extreme heat, chemical erosion from propane and welding flux and mechanical erosion. 

Don't get all complicated keep it simple and about 1/2 that size. Most importantly do NOT REFURB ASAP! The only thing rushing is sure to do is make your mistakes permanent more quickly. Take your time, your patience will be rewarded. Oh, don't follow online video how to's, most are terrible info some downright dangerous. There is a list of how to videos in Iforge's video section that have been mercilessly vetted. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Frosty, THANK YOU for opining.  

I will take time and do it right.  I just ordered complete kit from Glen.  I am going to GUT the inside of this forge. 

I will banish the firebrick, I read some where on IFI, (Probably one of your old posts "that firebrick is a giant heatsink."  I guess I kept it there because I wanted it to protect the insulation beneath it.  In essence it is causing me to use a LOT more gas, time, and sweating, fatigue from radiation....

I will cut a piece of steel w insulation installed, to fit back end, and bolt in place, leaving a window for a long blade to protrude.  I will look on forum to investigate "Baffle door", maybe this better than window...

On the front side that you can see in the pics, I can make a door with a blade portal, so as to reduce heat loss.

THANKs Again to ALL for help.

 

New information added August 2, 2020

 

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  • 4 months later...

According to the manufacturer, Kast 0 lite 30 should be applied, wait 24 hours, then heat at 100*F per hour, hold for an hour, and heat another 100*F and hold for an hour until you reach the operating temperature of the application.  For forges operating at 2000*F  that is a total of 20 hours ramp up time.  For 3000 *F that is a total of 30 hours.  Then cool slowly to 1200*F and hold for an hour.  All this is to remove the moisture from the refractory.

With 1/2 inch of Kast 0 lite 30, that specific ramp up and cool down is not quite as important as the moisture can move into the insulating wool.  This process insures that all the moisture is removed from the hard refractory.

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Glenn: Where do you get that information? Is it from one of the retailers? It's so totally different than what I found on the manufacturer's site. Kastolite doesn't DRY, at all it needs water in excess of that needed to mix and apply to cure properly. 

I've seen similar dry and ramped heat cycle cure directions on blacksmith sites but not on the manufacturer or the major distributors sites. 

What is your source, I'd like to look at it. If I'm wrong I'd rather know, than just think I'm right.

Thanks,

Frosty The Lucky.

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No need Glenn, I found where it came from. The procedure you outline is after Kastolite has cured in 100% humidity and is in part to dry the cured refractory completely. 

It's part of the maximum strength and highest heat procedures and goes a couple steps beyond what we'll ever need.  

Mix it, apply it, when it sets let it rest for a few hours and subject it to 100% humidity, I just set my forge in a plastic tote with a few gallons of water in it. Let it cure a minimum 24 hours but 7 days develops max properties. Give it 24 hours to dry and do the thermal cycle cure you described above.

I REALLY wish Kastolite provided clear instructions but they don't, you have to find their site and fish around to find instructions and then convert from 100lb. batch quantities to something we use.

Frosty The Lucky.

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