Matrikote over Kastolite

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Got this from Wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boron

[Binesman]

Your chemical knowledge is probably far greater then mine.  Boron powder was something recommended to me by an old friend who was a pottery instructor.  He provided me with pure boron powder.  My understanding is that it is in essence what borax is made of.  it is working as a flux and allowing it to vitrify around 2900F

[Frosty]

Thanks I'll check wiki and see where it leads. . .   OWWW! Now my head really hurts! Thank you oh so VERY much. Think I'll make chicken cacciatore I only have to play with sharp and hot things no recipe. 

Wanna share my headache Binesman? I didn't need to look at ANY link in the wiki article and I believe I know all I need to about Boron. Actually most Boron compounds are made from borax and pure elemental boron is the kind of stuff only over confident college chemistry majors think they can make. It's about as handy and useful as carbon. Neat stuff but I think I'm going to take an advil and have a nap now.

I'm going to check around and see where I can get some and see what it does to zircopax. Seeing as zircopax is a pretty common ingredient in many pottery and ceramics recipes I'm betting your friend knows what he's talking about. Cool, something new to tinker with.

Off to nap, see you later.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Binesman]

Here's what I will tell you Frosty.  I'm an ignorant smart person.  I don't have a lot in the way of schooling so my explanation is sometimes WAY off because I use the wrong terms etc.  So i'll just tell you what I'm using and what I'm seeing and you can determine whats happening.  So I have been playing with a lot of compounds but I have been using the raw compounds so calling it known products is shakey.  For instance I have 99.6< Zirconium.  we will just call that zircopax (however check the bag I have found some at my local potter in the same pile ranging from 60<zirc)  Then I have what I am told is pure boron but again from my understaning it is in essence borax.  I also have 99.8< alumina 99.7<kaolin(I know dirt but I think grain structure may matter)  then various forms of silica and dry waters.

So pure zirconium alone.  I mixed to a sour cream like substance and painted on let dry for 4 hours and reapeted a total of 6 times to end in what is about a 1/16" layer.  (this is inside a 6 brick forge 4x4.5 chamber using an inline 3/4"NAburner)  It formed an almost chalk like coating that when I fired the forge some blew away and some got rubbed off.  it did however get the inside of the forge to a dull white heat.  So it was working really well.  However I could see the flame blowing it off and if I where to work in it I would say after 10 hours it would be like I had done nothing.

So I recoated with zirconium then I put on a 1/4" layer of mizzou(I can never spell there xxxx name but I used the named brand not my own mix)I should also say I tried with kastolite30 name brand and my own blend of high alumina refractory.  mizzou is by far the best because it is the heaviest and works as an inductive mass better.

By combining these 2 in this manner the forge got white not sparkler level but within 50 degrees of sparklers.

I then started to figure out a top layer wash.  One of my better success before boron came in a mix that was. 95%zirc 5%borax suspended in a dry liquid.  paint it on almost like a cool whip then when you fire it the dry water suspends the zirc so more heat can get in to it the borax lets it vitrify.  however you end up this very brittle thing that is pretty much useless and shatters.  This was the point my friend stepped in with boron.  I found that a mix of 95%zirc 5% boron would start to vitrify at what I would call white temp that I guestimate at the 2800to2900 range.  The problem was it ran like water.so I could get my floor but not my walls/roof.  By adding the kaolin in and some more boron it starts to vitrify around the same temp however it stays to the roof/wall MUCH better I still get dripping but nothing like with out the kaolin.  

Now as far as putting this mix on the floor of the forge I don't recommend.  I found what happened when I wanted to forgeweld is the mix began to vitrify and was like lava on my workpiece.  but what was on the walls mostly stayed.  

This forge will now get to the point of white that it hurts to look at.  I've not had a gas forge get there before.  I don't know if that's uncommon or if my forges have just always sucked <shrug> All I do know is that I have to wear welders goggles to forge weld now.

[pnut]

4 hours ago, Binesman said:

.so I could get my floor but not my walls/roof. 

Can you do the floor and rotate the bricks. Making the bricks that was the wall now be the floor and coat it let it cool and repeat? I know you won't be able to do that with the brick with the burner but it will work for the other three surfaces. If it's a forge with blanket and kast-o-lite just rotate the whole forge.

Pnut

[Binesman]

6 hours ago, pnut said:

Can you do the floor and rotate the bricks

More than likely.  Bit that level of Tinker is something I don't have time for atm.

[pnut]

Just an idea. I had a feeling that it was mainly just a forge to test the coatings in before deciding on one to use in your full time forge anyway. 

Pnut

[Binesman]

I'm going to be building a number of forges for an upcoming project.  Figured I would get them as good as I can   I think my final process will be 2" of blanket that has been ridgidized and then coated in zirconium  Cast inside a 1/2" shell of kastolite with a 1/4" innershell of mizzou then coated in a high zirc wash.  This build will be for my first ribbon burner forge.  but i'll make a 3/4' na to go beside it so I can compare.

 

[Frosty]

14 hours ago, Binesman said:

my explanation is sometimes WAY off because I use the wrong terms etc. 

Sure sounds like we're more alike than different. I did poorly inn school, not because I wasn't absorbing the info but because I was too much in my own world and thinking of other things. I'd read the book and if class had anything to add I'd listen but. . . nevermind. I don't know if I'm all that smart but I have excellent reading comprehension and a near eidetic memory for what I read. Unfortunately my memory has always been more random access than read write. <sigh>

Chemistry is largely math and I'm not such a math guy so I didn't pay enough attention and reading the book was Greek to me. 

Your results are about what I'd expect. Our forges don't get nearly hot enough to fuse zirconium, not by about 3,000f so it's only going to dry if you use it straight. Kaolin has a low enough fusion temp but for some reason it's never fired in my forge and there's still some on the roof of my shop forge that's been there at least 12 years, still chalky if you rub it. 

I don't know what boron you have, probably a nitride, they're the most common. As an additive it seems boron nitrides make really strong compounds from strong compounds. They can also make clays more elastic so it throws better on the wheel, same thing is said about bentonite. I was a driller for nearly 20 years and have experience with bentonite, seriously serious stuff. 

Borax seems to have become the generic term for boron compounds 20 mule team borax is one of many boratetetra. . . something. There are a lot of different ones that operate the same way they don't "refine" it for just one type, what you get in the box depends on what lens they were excavating that day. Borax beds are basically dry salt lake/oceans. I just looked at the headers when I got to how it's separated in nature, too complicated and not relevant. 

20 Mule Team Borax will act as a binder and stick zircopax, etc. together but it has a low melting temp and doesn't form a chemical bond with zirconium. Zirconium doesn't react chemically with many things, not inert but sort of close. Anyway, when you heat the coating above the melting point of borax it just melts and without a chemical or better yet molecular bond the zirconium separates. 

I had good luck sifting some of the aggregate out of Kastolite, mixing it with zircopax and applying it to a forge floor. It's not pretty, I didn't sift out enough aggregate but it's tough as nails and works nicely as a zirconium laced refractory/kiln wash. I don't know about Mizzou but the binder in Kastolite is calcite based. The same way concrete is based on Portland Cement, it's just the glue that sticks (cements) everything together. Calcites can take the heat though. 

Sifted Kastolite and PROBABLY Mizzou mixed with zircopax should make for a seriously HOT forge liner or kiln wash. 

Bentonite is different stuff all round but it will vitrify in our forges, better once fired it's a lot tougher than you might think even before it vitrifies. One of our guys here on IF was or is maybe experimenting with zirconia bentone blends and having pretty exciting results. Bentonite has as many different varieties as most of what we're talking about here so I just bought a sack of Baroid, drilling mud type bentonite. I'm darned happy with how well it works as a kiln wash though I really messed up on the mixture with, 80% zir X 20% bentonite. It should've been around 97% zir X 3% bentonite.

I am more than a little interested in seeing what some Boron will do to the stuff. 

I just make small test coupons or coat a piece of broken brick to test.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Binesman]

spoke with my friend.  he said he gets his boron out of boric acid supliment pills.  just pop them open and it's pretty much pure boron in order to be FDA safe.

[Frosty]

Not according to wiki. boric acid is (H3 BO3) a long way from pure boron, (B).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boric_acid

You're making me read these headache causing chemistry things on purpose aren't you? I apologize I won't do it again you can stop hurting me. Please? 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Binesman]

I'm not trying to hurt you.  I'm simply parroting what I was told.  Yes borric acid is a long way off I had not looked up chemical compound.  I has asked how to get more and I was told to use the boric acid supliment I will have to ask him about this the next time we speak.

[Binesman]

On 2/8/2020 at 6:47 PM, Frosty said:

You're making me read these headache causing chemistry things on purpose aren't you?

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0366-69132011000400013  talks about sintering porcelain (I believe the person using bentonite is doing this) it also gives a recipe to get porcelain at 1200C easily reachable by any decent built forge.  I'm going to be playing around with this process as I think it is much more likely to work better than what we have been getting with vitrification (at least I think).

[Binesman]

On 2/6/2020 at 4:33 PM, Frosty said:

 OWWW! Now my head really hurts! Thank you oh so VERY much

have you seen or played with this stuff?  

 

I've been using zirc/kaolin/boron with glue to make this stuff.  It's pretty fun to play with.  It will heat your forge up FAST but it is realeasing a lot of carbon as it does it.  you get left with a very fragile porcelain shell then the center is just good spongey mats that you can rinse and repeat.  I'm wondering if replacing kaolin with veegumT wouldn't allow it to sinter and maintain a solid structure.  I have not clue how it will react to the carbon release however.

 

[Frosty]

I'm going to have to think of something special for you Binesman, you keep coming up with this stuff to mess with my poor dented brain!  

10 pts corn starch, 1 pt, baking soda and enough milk glue to make it plastic (like modeling clay/ plasticine) and you can light a pile of thermite in it without burning through. Uh, I watched the video and I'm sure my head will stop spinning soon but . . . 

I'm thinking evacuated silica spheres (the bubbles in KOL) or similar for insulation and it's a working if not superior forge refractory. 

Looking at the thumbnail recipe you listed above looks like the only ingredient you think makes it resistant to extreme heat is the milk glue. I agree kaolin clay doesn't fire like I'd expect but it turns out it's the bentonite in the mix that makes it easy to throw on a wheel and fire easily. Unless you have a good source I think Veegum might be more expensive than useful. Here in AK, I priced 1lb. of  Veegum and shipping was barely less expensive than a 50lb. sack of Baroid drill mud, Bentonite. I've played with it and really like it's properties as a refractory and or kiln wash, right out of the sack. 

I'm thinking after I source a large bucket of corn starch I'm going to see what works to make it foam up for insulation then play with adding a layer of zircopax to the flame face.

Have you watched a video that shows how the couple in the video you linked made their Starlight into insulation?

Good thing it's snowing hard or I'd spend the day watching videos and taking notes, instead of plowing snow. Got a dump run to make two. No rest for the lazy. <sigh>

This sounds like fun. I remember seeing the inventor on one of the old TV shows. The demos were the egg and one where he laid a maybe 1/4" thick sheet on his hand and took an oxy acet torch to it for a couple minutes while he talked. I'm kind of excited,  thanks for the link.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Binesman]

I've been playing with this xxxx all day.  I'm out of glue my kids are out of glue my wood glue is gone.  i'm getting ready to go to samsclub and buy more glue.  here's the issue.  the glue itself is burning as carbon.  so you get a LOT of carbon build up so much so that it "pops" the zirconium seal and you get broken  porcelain.  

 

Have you watched a video that shows how the couple in the video you linked made their Starlight into insulation?

 

There is a better video for that from the guy who "invented" this LosTech.

 

 

I have to say i'm glad you responded that way.  I found this video last night and was like xxx.  Then I spent the morning playing with it and again xxx.  I was realy afraid I would post this and everyone would be like "oh yeah that's old news your behind the curve"