Build anvil from scrap

[oregondave]

Hi I wonder if this idea would work

 

I want to take a bunch of scrap metal (100lb or more), and some scrap cube.

I take the scrap cube, and I cut and stick weld a minimal anvil block.  Nothing special, it can be ugly,  just something extremely simple. The key is that it is minimally viable. 

Then I take the scrap metal, forge it, and blacksmith it into more cubes using the minimal viable anvil.

I weld the cubes together (it can be ugly), until I get to 100lb or more.

Then using a cut off blade and regular angle grinder blade, shape a real anvil. (Yes, a lot of work, and Yes wearing massive protective gear expecting the blades to explode at any moment)

 I have several boxes of 60XX and 70XX sticks and a 160 amp AC/DC welder and a huge box of angle grinders and bits, but no budget.

Do you think this would work as a starter anvil? Yes I know people are going to say just buy one, but I'd like to start another topic another day when I have the budget to buy one so "just buy one" isn't what I am looking to discuss about at this time (thanks though)

Scrap prices are very low and I can find steel on the street being given away.

[Will W.]

What you have planned is an extremely copious amount of work. It would be leagues more efficient and effective to find a single piece of scrap metal that will work for your needs. A piece of railroad track works very well. Or a truck axle stood on end. Take a look in the anvil section of the forum and you will find numerous threads about improvised anvils. 

Remember: it doesnt have to be a london pattern anvil to beat steel on. 

[oregondave]

Hi thanks. I literally have 6 months with nothing to do. I work on my farm April through October. November through April, I have to keep busy on something. I think this would be productive and enjoyable project to do.  Other then that I could get a job, but I have no expenses (hence the zero budget).  Absent of doing repair work on my tractors and building onto my shop, I've got nothing else to do with my time.   So this is an effective use of my time, otherwise its nothing and I've already seen everything on netflix it seems.  Want to stay busy with my hands.  Can you comment on the technical aspects of my idea?  

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

How big is this starting cube?

A " real anvil" is not a shape, it's a funtion. Before about 200 years ago insted of a blacksmiths multi tool, an anvil was just that, a block of iron. The bick (horn) bolster (prichel hole) and hardy (a collection of top and bottom tools and an assistant to hold and or strike said tools) were infact separate tools. 

Google "Viking era anvil",  " Iron Age anvil" and "roman anvil" under an image search if you like. You will notice that anvils are simple tools and for most of history rather small compared to today. 

Insted of investing time and material in duilding a London pattern anvil from scrap, find a suitable piece of scrap to use as a post or block anvil, build a portable hole to hold hardiest and and make a bick. From here, after learning to forge steel I would be more interested in converting cheap scrap and your accsess to rod and abrasives in to a small power hammer. 

Now understand this all sounds like a bunch of old men saying you can't, not at all. We have had such grandiose ideas when we first started, now after a bit of experiance we realize that we would have been beter off investing time and materials elsewhere. A simple block or post anvil, a forge, tongs, hammers, files and a vice will get you up and running and all that time you would have invested in welding up scrap and grinding it will now be available to acualy forge steel. 

This is just a primer as to what information we have available here, you will note that unlike YouTube, or other places we have peir revew buy real smiths, peaple who you may not know but others you have seen on TV and other media. 

[Charles R. Stevens]

As to the technical aspects, as a farmer, you already know their is a difrence between mild, medium and carbon steels, as well as stainless, cromeMolly and manganese steels, pluss the difrence in welding them. You may not know the particulars to welding wrought iron and making repairs to tool steels, but that information is acualy here. 

First, you have to weld compleatly threw the connections, not just around them, so you have to have significant bevels so as to reach all the way to the middle of your conection. Second, a hardened tool steel top is often used, this either requires welding (again all the way from the center) a top plate on the (flange of a piece of train rail flange or truck spring have been used successfully) body of the anvil. A hardy hole must be drilled and shaped (in the absence of a broach 3/16 holes drilled at the corners and the waste removed with a 1" drill falowed buy a cold chisel and filing) as well as drilling prichel holes befor heating the whole assembly to critical before quenching. With such a large mass stem will acualy form an insulating jacket so one eithe needs a quench plate of liquid cooled copper or aluminum or as is/was used buy anvil manufactures a way to direct a stream under pressure (a water tower) onto the top plate. Now that it is hard we need to temper the plate to 55-60 RH. 

Alternitively one can use high impact serfacing rod that has a a 55-60 RH.  

Don't forget that medium and high carbon steels require pre and post heat.

Alternitively spend a couple of days scrounging up and building a simple kit and 6 months forging, lol

 

 

[oregondave]

thanks. this is exactly the kind of information I need. now I need to lookup the meaning of the details you provided. what I guess I should have mentioned, is that I need practice in all of these areas. I need to make mistakes and learn from them. I'm stubborn and have to learn the hard way.  I was not planning on using Iron, but outside of blacksmithing it was something I wanted to do (weld iron).  I had a old Fordson Major tractor that had a crack in the oil pan. For whatever reason, back in the days (before the 60s), tractors were designed with the front axles supported by the engine though a "wish bone" front axle. In fact, the entire tractor weight goes through the engine block. For whatever reason, Fordson decided to put the weight of the front end of the tractor on a cast iron oil pan. It cracked (it had a loader, so of course) and was cast iron. At the time (in the field) I tried to take the oil pan off, and take it to a master mechanic/expert welder to weld the cast iron back. But I decided to sell the tractor instead when I determined that I was probably going to die under the tractor from an accident after adjusting the jack three times to different locations.

[George Geist]

Cast iron is a real tough job even for an expert welder. Usually it works best brazed. Critically important step is bringing the entire part up to a uniform heat. This often requires fabricating a special makeshift forge outside in the ground or BBQ pit. When the piece is hot enough uniformly all around, it's brazed with an oxy-acetylene torch. Chances of doing this successfully are about 50/50.

This is how racked manifolds and such can be fixed but due to the uncertain results of such an undertaking most people just dig into their pockets for a new part.

George

[Charles R. Stevens]

I think we have an issue with nomenclature, iron is the element from which we make steel buy adulterating it with carbon. It is soft, easy to weld and resists rusting away buy virtue of forming an iron oxide patina.

Wrought iron is the old stuff that came from bloomadary forges and contained silica slag in strings like wood grain. This too was mostly low to no carbon, resisted rusting away. Wrought also forges at much higher temps as one must melt the slag as well as soften the iron. It forgewelds realy but is tricky to weld with other methods because of the slag. 

Steel is iron containing carbon and often other elements to effect its properties.this is the material we will most often be working with at the forge.

cast iron is a very high carbon alloy, and tho it can be converted to steel buy burning off the excess carbon is not a forgeable material.  

[JHCC]

If you want to invest a huge amount of time and material in producing a crudely functional anvil rather than investing that same amount of time in learning basic forging skills, that’s your choice. Go for it, if it makes you happy. 

[ThomasPowers]

I went to the scrapyard yesterday and bought a 50# chunk of steel for US$10 Bingo an anvil---and it came with *2* 1" hardy holes in it.

If you have no budget UNPLUG YOUR WELDER!  as electricity costs money. Let me know how well that works for you...

May I commend this to you as an example of a much better and cheaper "improvised anvil",     http://www.marco-borromei.com/fork.html

Really suggest you rake leaves or shovel snow and buy a chunk of scrap that is an anvil as it stands.  This will allow you to make things you can sell and start saving for the anvil you think you need.  (Meanwhile look on youtube for the National Geographic's "Living Treasures of Japan" and find the section on the sword make and look at the anvil he is using...)

[Will W.]

21 hours ago, JHCC said:

If you want to invest a huge amount of time and material in producing a crudely functional anvil rather than investing that same amount of time in learning basic forging skills, that’s your choice. Go for it, if it makes you happy. 

Agreed. 100 percent. Dont waste your time making an anvil that will probably not work as well as a simple block of steel. At scrap prices, its also far cheaper to go this way. 

Take all this free time youre going to have and, instead of making this anvil idea of yours, learn how to forge steel which is, after all, the end goal here. 

P.S. youre are farmer, so you must have old pieces of steel sitting around. I have never seen a farmer who doesnt. No old tractor axles sitting around that you could stand up on end and use?

[blacksmith-450]

20 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Meanwhile look on youtube for the National Geographic's "Living Treasures of Japan" and find the section on the sword make and look at the anvil he is using...)

34:13  and 36:20 

 

[ThomasPowers]

Depends on which version you find; some are cut into smaller bits---last time I watched it...

[blacksmith-450]

This version

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

Note how the lack of a London Pattern anvil hampers his ability to do good work....or not!

[caotropheus]

I have already a very good anvil I improvised from scrap. I even have real good anvils, though "low weight" (one 14 kg, one 37 kg). But I had to see what is to make an anvil with bits of scrap. I am making a video on how I am doing this anvil. I may say it is all made out of mild steel and I used 7 major chunks of scrap and minor bits of stock and so far around 20 kg of electrodes almost all of them 3.25 mm and 4 mm and currently weighs 65 kg. I have a 3 phase 380 V, 3 x 16 A welder that allows me to use up to 5mm electrodes or 250 Amps but I am afraid of cause damage to my electrical wiring at home (classic European standard 3x 220 V   25 Amps).

The construction of this anvil have become an exercise of stubbornness ! 

This is how far I got, I think that 4 or 5 more hours welding will give me the result I am aiming for...

[Daswulf]

I personally think you had a usable anvil with the center piece and you have been working too hard to make it like a London pattern anvil when you could have built external tools way easier to perform the same function. To each their own. 

[caotropheus]

You are absolutely right about it. After all in my threads you can see a real nice anvil I improvised a couple of years ago and it serves my very well. But I still do not have an hardy hole I am satisfied with, so I got this bit of round stock 160 mm diameter and I thought "what a really nice stricking anvil!" after using it for a while I thought " I have this bit of 40 mm thick plate, so, if I add it I have a stricking anvil with a nice hardy hole!" I did it and I used it and then I thought "if I add a round horn and an angular horn this will make a nice anvil" ... you get the idea, right? Now it become an exercise of stubbornness...

[Marc1]

Making your own anvil is always an exercise in stubbornness, any way you look at it.

However most of the things we do are, so ... I would call it a sculpturing exercise.

Make a bigger one next time. 

[Daswulf]

Haha well, I can sympathize with stubbornness. I try to keep my problematic sides to myself. I have no argument with how you explained your build and that it's how you progressed. I just like new guys to know that they don't need a London pattern looking anvil to start, having to weld stuff up into one. That they can make separate parts/ tools for function. Carry on . I won't say it isn't cool but I can't say it's necessary. 

[Marc1]

My mother used to make fun of us (3 boys) and say that when you have an itch on your right cheek, you can scratch yourself with your right hand or ... you can use your left hand going behind the back of your head and scratch yourself that way.

Making an anvil is even more far fetched than making a boat, yet many people do. Then sell it for 1/4 of what it cost in materials. 

There are other reasons for building stuff in the most disadvantageous way with the worst possible results and the most anti-economical ways. It' just a matter of finding that elusive reason ...  ... Usually it is that statement that goes ..."I did it myself"  ... and it is as valid a reason as any other. Not practical, not economical but just as good. After all ... what is the rational of blacksmithing in the 21 century again?