Rebuilt my gas forge, now I feel ill when I use it.

[natedogg56]

HI all. 

I got given a LPG (propane) forge and have used it for about 3 years on and off and never had any issues.  Now I'm getting sore thorats, headaches and a bit of nausea after I use it for a prolonged time (full day, multiple days in a row), issues I never had before, same forge and same space.  Two things have changed - i relined it and increased the insulation - it initially only had ceramic fibre board insulation.  I replaced the ceramic fibre  board also used some ITC products to seal thefibre board, boost reflectivity etc..  The other thing I did was I removed the back forge wall with the intention of putting in a door for longer pieces.  I got busy and haven't got round to it so the back is open.

With the increased insulation, the heat is greater in the forge, and the flame also seems more intense, stronger, and has a greater blast coming out the front.  As far as I'm concerned the flame is a good level of blue, though I'm no expert.  I'm wondering if the flame is perhaps running too rich and not burning off all the LPG/Propane?  Would having the back open effect things at all?

My prime concern is that I'm creating more CO now then I was before I relined the forge.  There is an air adjustment which I've never messed with because I never had any issues previously, perhaps this needs adjusting?. I have a lot of ventilation via a large barn style sliding door, and air vents which run down one side of the space, which previously seemed adequate  

I'm after thoughts, advice on how I might go about dealing with this, as I don't really have a lot of experience with gas.  I'd like to get back to how it was before honestly, I had less heat but I also felt better!

Advice gratefully accepted!

 

Nate

[Latticino]

This sounds like a medical issue, and I'm not going to touch that with a 10' pole.

However there is a chance that you may have irritated your throat when relining the forge if proper PPE was not worn during the operation.  Also, as far as I know ITC does not act as a fiber sealant, you should have used rigidizer first.  If your forge is getting hotter, there may be more friable glass fibers in the air, these should be avoided.

Get a CO monitor before doing any more forging!

[Frosty]

I'm not a doctor and don't give medical advice but if I had to guess I'd say move it outdoors or don't use it till you get a CO monitor!

We haven't talked about this before that I'm aware of but a burner running too lean CAN produce nitrous oxide which makes nitric acid when combined with water. This MIGHT account for a sore throat but headache and nausea? Headache and nausea sounds like CO.

Do NOT take what I THINK as anything but inexpert gum flapping, get a CO monitor!

Frosty The Lucky.

[TFT]

I was thinking(no expert) sore throat from relining the forge and from cleaning up(if you did) the dust could have been moving around in the air and irritated your throat(temperary) and maybe cause damage down the road... but thats just a thought so do get scared cause im not a expert(like i said) 

But hope you resolve your issues so you can get back to it 

[ThomasPowers]

Did you change it's orientation in it's environment any allowing for exhaust to be able to be rerun through the burner?   

[Mikey98118]

Basically, what they said! One detail though: A burner that is running too lean generally won't produce the smog effect, unless it is also burning very hot (between 2800F and 3200F). Since the hottest temperatures come from neutral flames, and  lean combustion actually lowers flame temperature, producing the smog effect is not likely; I've only done it with one burner in all these years, and it was easy to discern from the strong scent of ozone.

Carbon monoxide is odorless, but if your burner was running so rich as to make you sick, it would also produce plummeting flame temperatures; even worse than a lean flame.

Since you state that your forge is running hotter, my bet is on toxic dust from rebuilding old ceramic fiber blanket with out proper safety procedures. 

 

[TFT]

Yay i might have had valid input... for once

[Frosty]

I'd like to add that running lean and hot enough to produce nitrous oxide will actually be a hotter fire due to nitrogen combustion. I don't know if it's a significant temp increase but it's there so the forge would NOT be running cooler.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Glenn]

Get the forge OUTSIDE until you find and fix the problem.

Then get and use a CO detector.

[GWIOW]

As stated on the box, Ceramic fibre insulation is carcinogenic e.g. it will cause lung cancer and other lung diseases. It must be covered whenever it is used in direct flame and a proper mask and PPE must be worn when fitting or cutting before coating. It must be treated with the same regard as asbestos. Please check with your supplier regarding safety regulations in your area. It may be different to ours. 

Rant over, just so people know the risks before using it. 

 

[Mikey98118]

I am willing to agree that ceramic fibers contain something (silicon) that turns into a probable carcinogen upon reaching 1400 F; so does common dirt. I don't believe that ceramic fibers must be treated with the same regard as asbestos, anymore than smoking pot, or sitting around a camp fire, should be equated with the dangers of smoking tobacco; all three produce "known carcinogens"; are they equivalent? Why, of course they are, and the sky is falling too; just ask Chicken Little; he can be found on every politically correct government safety committee.

What can we say for c-e-r-t-a-i-n about crystabolite? We know that the more time ceramic fiber spends at or above 1400 degrees the more of it gets formed, and the more thermal cycles ceramic fibers are put through the more fibers that will break, creating dust: therefore, removing old blanket is much worse for your health than installing new blanket, yes? So why all the big time safety warnings on the box? Because the more dire the warning labels are the better they look in court.

Political correctness: The sincere belief that two wrongs make a right (for our side; not theirs).
 

[GWIOW]

Well Mikey as always the choice is yours in regards to safety. I am just passing on the info from the company who makes it here.

But after some more research (thanks TFT for the link) I think I will be trying to get it from the U.S as it does seem to make a non toxic version maybe it's made using a different process in the U.S.

whether they would post to a tiny island off the south of England is any body's guess.

As I said just passing on the information what you do with it is up to you.

Regards Gary

[TFT]

Ahh spreading possible misinformation

 

Im not testifing to its non toxic status... it claims to be but after a forge heat cycle(maybe even if covered with hard refractory) it may/may not stay true...

BE SAFE WEAR YOUR PPE because i dont want anyone getting sick(or worse) because i dont know stuff

[Mikey98118]

Gary,

I agree with your views on safety; will in fact go even further and recommend use of rubber dish-washing gloves, changing clothes and showering afterward, along with vacuum cleaning and mopping the work area clean.

But overstating the case has been a standard ploy of the political correctness lovers for the last half century in my country, and I must confess it has given me a major case of the red ass. Sorry I took it out on you; that wasn't right.

Mikey