Curtis87 Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Hey guys, I just got a bunch of rail spikes that I had intended to turn into bottle openers. But when I picked them up I saw they were tagged HC. So I'm just looking for ideas for cool things I could make with these now that I know the steel is a bit higher quality. As usual, any input if greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 "HC" in RR spikes isn't the same thing as High Carbon in the rest of the world. (True high-carbon spikes would work-harden and snap.) Use them as you would any other RR spike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 I did a youtube video testing those spikes. The RR Engineers manual gives the chemistry the spikes must meet. They are .25% carbon. A little vanadium helps mask the low carbon content. Yes, I have a vendetta against RR spike knives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackKnight0739 Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Ron Reil made snakes out of railroad spikes, here's the photos in his gallery (and how he did it): http://ronreil.abana.org/gallery.shtml I will be trying to make these this month, that's my goal project! I just need to find the time lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 The spec I have on RR spikes says the HC ones can top out just about the border between low carbon and medium carbon steel. A piece of 5160 spring has *double* the carbon of that! the sort of & pieces of rail anchors have close to double the carbon content of a RR spike. What are you saving them for ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedCustoms Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 I never understand why everyone picks on the humble RR spike. I just read an article about the chemical analysis of 20 swords ranging from 1000ad/ce to 1700ad/ce. The carbon content was all over the place with up to .60 variance in the same blade with some blades averaging in the low .20 range. Some of the blades showed evidence of water quenching with no tempering. At every point along the path smiths made the best tool they could out of what they had to work with at the time. If we apply that line of reasoning today with the super alloys and precision heat treat equipment that exists in the 21st century it wouldn't leave much room for traditional blacksmithing. Railroad spikes are not the best knife/tool steel available to us today, but then again neither is 1095, 5160, 15n20 or any of the other high carbon steels that can be worked in a coal fire and heat treated to a high degree of sucsess without using ultra-modern technologies. Assuming you don't consider the electric arc furnace that produces homogeneous batches of those steels "ultra" modern. When anyone says that a knife or other tool made from a spike is not a knife it's like saying knives didn't exist until after the industrial revolution. In my opinion, a spike knife that's water hardened would be superior to a stone knife, a copper knife, a bronze knife, and an iron knife, all of which are legitimate knives. It will be inferior to a knife forged from 5160 or 1095, assuming you have the skill set to get the most out of each of those materials. I think they're great for beginning blade smiths. The lower carbon steel moves easily, you can work it at higher temps and if you burn one up you're not out much. Most of us didn't learn how to drive in a race car. Learning to move hot steel with mild to medium carbon is a good way to learn hammer control and fire management basics without destroying higher quality steels. They are not going to make durable punches but its a cheep way to learn to hammer hexes and rounding tapers, drawing out, piercing and all sorts of other basics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 When compared to steels from 2000 years ago, yes the lowly RR spike is a much better steel. My issue is the misinformation that gets passed around. I've seen too many guys selling a "high carbon" RR spike knife. Too many guys passing the information around that it's "high carbon". And worst of all, guys selling "high carbon" rr spike knives. Too many novice smiths believing that's what they are working with. It wouldn't be an issue if the myth didn't get perpetuated. If everyone knew they were making an "art" knife or even adding a true high carbon cutting edge it wouldn't be an issue. I recently saw a guy selling spike knives on ebay, he claimed they were .5-.6 percent carbon. How did he come by that, he "spark checked' them. Guys like that perpetuate the myth and make new ones. We know newbs aren't the most diligent about testing thier knives, otherwise they would figure it out. But no, the myth gets perpetuated. So take that spike and forge your knife. Water quench it, don't even bother to temper it. File check it. That's all you have to do. Truth in advertising. I don't do spike knives because I don't want some novice seeing it and thinking its a legitimate blade steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.C. Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 And honestly Twisted, it's the same problem Smiths face with cast iron anvils, "smelting" metals at home, forging galvanized stock, and any of the other infuriating misinformation that the internet has helped propagate. We're not against the item, were against ignorance. There are quite a few posts here about the wonderful things to be made from the "humble rail spike"...what many of our members are down on is passing on WRONG information. Simply put, HC is not really "high carbon" in a knife making sense. It is totally superior to iron blades made of bloomery iron, but to call it high carbon in today's world is like calling a steam engine a "high performance motor"...in 1850, totally accurate...not so much today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedCustoms Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 D.C. and jmccustomknives.....for the record, I am in complete agreement about misinformation and truth in advertising. I don't believe my post contains anything inaccurate and I qualified my personal ranking of the usefulness of spikes as an opinion, not fact. The core of my message was the ease of forging lower carbon steels for beginners. Ranking low to mid carbon steels midway between a stone knife and modern high carbon steels like 1095 might help someone with little to no knowledge of metallurgy better understand why spikes don't make great knives. Nowhere in my post do I describe spikes as being "high carbon". For my next post I'm going with something less controversial than RR spikes. I'm thinking religion or politics would be a safer place to tread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 16 minutes ago, TwistedCustoms said: D.C. and jmccustomknives.....for the record, I am in complete agreement about misinformation and truth in advertising. I don't believe my post contains anything inaccurate and I qualified my personal ranking of the usefulness of spikes as an opinion, not fact. The core of my message was the ease of forging lower carbon steels for beginners. Ranking low to mid carbon steels midway between a stone knife and modern high carbon steels like 1095 might help someone with little to no knowledge of metallurgy better understand why spikes don't make great knives. Nowhere in my post do I describe spikes as being "high carbon". For my next post I'm going with something less controversial than RR spikes. I'm thinking religion or politics would be a safer place to tread. lol Here's where my beef started. It was 4 years of wondering around before I met my first real smith. During that time every Tom, Dick, and Harry would give me their wisdom. Among those "jewels" of knowledge were the high carbon content of RR spikes, quenching files without tempering, even a guy who folded the spikes to make them "better" and so on. That advise sent me down paths I didn't need to go, having a background in the welding industry I had enough knowledge about steel to be dangerous, but when it came to knives and tool steels I didn't know squat. I had been screwing around with springs for 3 years before getting a spike. Oh yeah I thought, high carbon, this will be fun. After a few heats I realized this steel wasn't the same as the springs. It flowed much easier, when it didn't resist the hammer even after it thinned I knew then it wasn't the same as the other high carbon steels so I threw it in the junk pile. If I hadn't had prier experience with high carbon steels I would have perpetuated the myth too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedCustoms Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 2 minutes ago, jmccustomknives said: lol Here's where my beef started. It was 4 years of wondering around before I met my first real smith. During that time every Tom, Dick, and Harry would give me their wisdom. Among those "jewels" of knowledge were the high carbon content of RR spikes, quenching files without tempering, even a guy who folded the spikes to make them "better" and so on. That advise sent me down paths I didn't need to go, having a background in the welding industry I had enough knowledge about steel to be dangerous, but when it came to knives and tool steels I didn't know squat. I had been screwing around with springs for 3 years before getting a spike. Oh yeah I thought, high carbon, this will be fun. After a few heats I realized this steel wasn't the same as the springs. It flowed much easier, when it didn't resist the hammer even after it thinned I knew then it wasn't the same as the other high carbon steels so I threw it in the junk pile. If I hadn't had prier experience with high carbon steels I would have perpetuated the myth too. I get it. I had the benefit of a very knowledgeable established smith who was very generous with his time when I started. One of the first things I ever hit with a hammer was a 3" 52100 ball bearing. I always suspected he gave me that bearing to see if I was serious about wanting to learn. I'm less worried about the guys who are getting in the fire and trying things. They will figure it out eventually. I do have a problem with marketing things for sale either dishonestly or from a place of ignorance. There isn't a week that goes by that someone doesn't walk into the shop and say, "can you forge me a spike knife, I saw one in Dollywood" or some version of that. Most of these guys bring one or two, some bring a bucket full. I tell every one of them what the spikes are made of and point out several other steels in the shop which will make a better, stronger, sharper knife. It always ends the same....." So can you do it". Most of them end up sitting on the mantle and get passed around at cook outs but I do have a few guys who will stand up in church and swear it's the best skinner they've ever owned. There is a mystique surrounding spike knives. If they love them they will covet them and can't be swayed buy facts about metallurgy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtis87 Posted September 6, 2016 Author Share Posted September 6, 2016 Well.... I guess I'll just look for pictures on Google. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Gotcha TwistedCustoms. Sorry about hijacking the thread. Inspiration comes from many places. I like to let the steel (and other materials) tell me. I've seen a lovely cook set done from spikes. I would have loved to have had them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51 Papy Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Curtis87 Plant hooks (if you want to start something you may not ever be able to quit) are easy and every gardner you know will want one. Small garden trowel (search this site) . Just made some s hooks for the porch swing today. Only limited by your imagination and how much work you want to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Bottle openers, tongs, split crosses, the list goes on. Lots of good ideas here on IFI -- just take a look! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedCustoms Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 16 hours ago, Curtis87 said: Well.... I guess I'll just look for pictures on Google. Apologies for getting sidetracked....... I have a friend who makes garden trowels from spikes, also the little three pronged garden rakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothBore Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 20 hours ago, TwistedCustoms said: I just read an article about the chemical analysis of 20 swords ranging from 1000ad/ce to 1700ad/ce. The carbon content was all over the place with up to .60 variance in the same blade with some blades averaging in the low .20 range. Some of the blades showed evidence of water quenching with no tempering. At every point along the path smiths made the best tool they could out of what they had to work with at the time. I don't want to start an argument, ... but only want to add perspective on this topic. There has ALWAYS been a broad range of quality, in the blades that were produced during the past 1,000 years. In that interim, Swords, Sabres and Cutlasses were mass produced, to fulfill very "cost conscious" military contracts. While simultaneously, the renowned "Hundred Guinea" presentation blades were also in common production. Certainly much of the cost of those "high end" Swords can be attributed to embellishment with precious metals and jewels, ... but it's also well documented, that those blades were known to be of superior quality, as well. Then, ... as now, ... the "price point" dictated the quality, ... so, they really didn't always make ... "the best tool they could out of what they had to work with at the time". More accurately, ... they made the best tool they could, ... for the agreed upon price. Some things never change. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/44160-the-handy-rail-spike/#comment-456208 Curtis, "The handy rail spike" thread has lots of pictures in it for your inspirational pleasure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedCustoms Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 2 hours ago, SmoothBore said: I don't want to start an argument, ... but only want to add perspective on this topic. There has ALWAYS been a broad range of quality, in the blades that were produced during the past 1,000 years. In that interim, Swords, Sabres and Cutlasses were mass produced, to fulfill very "cost conscious" military contracts. While simultaneously, the renowned "Hundred Guinea" presentation blades were also in common production. Certainly much of the cost of those "high end" Swords can be attributed to embellishment with precious metals and jewels, ... but it's also well documented, that those blades were known to be of superior quality, as well. Then, ... as now, ... the "price point" dictated the quality, ... so, they really didn't always make ... "the best tool they could out of what they had to work with at the time". More accurately, ... they made the best tool they could, ... for the agreed upon price. Some things never change. . No argument there and a good point. I would prefer to work on one commission for several months and produce something that challenges me every step of the way. Those commissions do come along but they don't pay the bills. Day in, day out, knick-knacks keep the shop going and anything I make from a spike, whether it be door pulls, steak turners, knives or back scratchers is fully in the category of knick-knacks. As a side note, the article I read noted that two of the blades tested were mono-steel with uniform carbon tested at 3cm intervals from tip to tang at .60 and a Rockwell of 54. Both swords were viking from circa 1000ad/ce. They didn't specifically say they were Ulfbert swords but it made me think of a public television program I watched on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 So many people seem to want to say that they make blades just as bad as the low end ones of medieval times? Would you use a Dr that swore that his techniques were just as good as those of the middle ages? Please look at "Knives and Scabbards Museum Of London" for medieval examples. BTW what was the article you read? (and for an even earlier take on it read "The Celtic Sword" Radomir Pleiner remembering that the Celtic weapons were extolled as being better than the roman ones! Also "The Metallography of Early Ferrous Edge Tools and Edged Weapons" Tylecote and Gilmour ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedCustoms Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 12 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: So many people seem to want to say that they make blades just as bad as the low end ones of medieval times? Would you use a Dr that swore that his techniques were just as good as those of the middle ages? Please look at "Knives and Scabbards Museum Of London" for medieval examples. BTW what was the article you read? (and for an even earlier take on it read "The Celtic Sword" Radomir Pleiner remembering that the Celtic weapons were extolled as being better than the roman ones! Also "The Metallography of Early Ferrous Edge Tools and Edged Weapons" Tylecote and Gilmour ) In reference to medieval medicine, no, and the comparison is ludicrous. Noones life is at stake over a novelty knife. The article is posted on myArmoury.com. The information was prepared by whoever controls the site and I can't speak for it's academic veracity, I just found it interesting. As always Thomas, thank you for posting the Titles of the Refference Materials. I do pay attention and I do add them to my list. I will track them down in short order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 I do not find the comparison ridiculous, If you will compare them with medieval knives you should be willing to compare other items with medieval ones. I am not the seer to tell that nobody will be in a situation where the "Novelty knives" that are being sold as *knives* will find out the difference to their detriment. I can only hope. As for the sources; I enjoy reading the rich history of this craft and much more good accurate information over mythology---though the list or Renaissance quenchants in "Sources for the History of the Science of Steel" is rather a hoot. (This book is a collection of excerpts of period writing on the subject starting in the 1500's and going up to 1780's when a fellow finally slapped his head and said "Its Carbon that turns iron into steel!" (but of course it was in French...the excerpts are all in translation in English) I just saw that they found a 1000 year old sword on Iceland! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedCustoms Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Sources for the History of the Science of Steel is available on Amazon, bookmarked and added to "the list" My reading begins in earnest in January. Nothing to do with the weather, I'm just running nonstop till Christmas. I admit there are several items of medieval style and quality that I enjoy owning but when it comes to my cardiologist I'll stick with 21st century medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gote Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 20 hours ago, SmoothBore said: More accurately, ... they made the best tool they could, ... for the agreed upon price. some things never change. How true! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.C. Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 So, maybe I can post a couple pictures since the O.P. Wanted some ideas. I'll even include a spike "knife like object"..I'll get some more later off my computer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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