Saved from the scrap yard: ~180lb Haybudden... Broken in half

[Twilight Fenrir]

I ran by my local scrap yard today to pick up some steel for a project... and one of the guys who worked there remembered the ONLY time I came in and asked about anvils, over 2 years ago, and asked me if I was still looking for an anvil... which of course the answer was, "always"

What he drug out was something of a horror story... the anvil broke in half, apparently from a failed forge-weld as best I can tell. Someone ground about 1" into the crack and did some very poor welding on the front before giving up.

But, I asked how much it was, which the first answer was $100. I pointed out it was broken in half, and he came down to $75, at which point I said I'd take it.

My first impression was that it was about 130 lbs or so... didn't look at it very closely to be honest. At $75 I really didn't care. When I first loaded it into my car, my estimate jumped to 150+ lbs. And once I got it home, looked at it a bit more carefully, I'm leaning towards about 180 lbs. (I really need to pick up a cheap scale if i'm gonna keep buying anvils...) It's about 29" from heel to horn, 4.5" wide face, and 12" tall.

It looks like it might be a Haybudden... It does have a serial number stamped on the front of the foot, anyone have a copy of Anvils in America handy to look it up for me? It looks like it's 112(1?)8? I'm not sure if there's a digit between the 2 and the 8, or if it's a chisel mark. The number after the 8 has a curve on top, so it's a 2, 3, 6, 8, or 9.

The original makers mark is all but obliterated, between the lost material around the waist, and the arc welding done to it... there are a 2 artifacts though... What looks like "SS", "S6", "SO", or "SC", and down an inch or so there is a definite "WA" (Likely from "Warranteed"

Also, using my keen eye for detail, I have looked at some of the tool marks left on the anvil. And it is my expert opinion that it was used in an automotive repair shop

I'm thinking it won't be too hard to weld it back together... I plan to lay the anvil on its side, and give it a hit with my 20# sledge to break it back in half, then grind a bevel all the way to the center, and fill it in entirely. Doing so with it upside down, the face submerged in water to keep it from loosing it's temper... I'm slightly concerned, because I've heard that wrought iron doesn't like to be electrically welded very much... Anyone have experience with it?

[Dave51B]

Twilight......you may need to try the  pics again.....I can't view them from here.              Dave 

[Twilight Fenrir]

7 minutes ago, Dave51B said:

Twilight......you may need to try the  pics again.....I can't view them from here.              Dave 

Try again... I fixed 'em almost immediately But you were just too quick for me!

[matto]

Hopefully the auto company was better at fixing cars!!! But I doubt it do to the fact they had to butcher a great anvil and then hid it in the dump.

[Dogsoldat]

Looks like an easy fix.  When you started off saying it was badly broken in half I was picturing a vertical crack someplace. 

[bigb]

I will be following this to see how it comes out. What filler and process will you choose? If it does not want to weld well how about brazing? Although I doubt you could get it hot enough for brazing with the top in water.

[Twilight Fenrir]

1 hour ago, matto said:

Hopefully the auto company was better at fixing cars!!! But I doubt it do to the fact they had to butcher a great anvil and then hid it in the dump.

Haha, no idea... I couldn't find any information about the shop... I'll ask one of the Old Timers at work and see if he knows them

1 hour ago, Dogsoldat said:

Looks like an easy fix.  When you started off saying it was badly broken in half I was picturing a vertical crack someplace. 

That's what I thought... Down at the waist? Should be really easy to fix. And I didn't take any pictures of it, but it's got a pretty nice flat face. It's not perfect, but it's very usable.

28 minutes ago, bigb said:

I will be following this to see how it comes out. What filler and process will you choose? If it does not want to weld well how about brazing? Although I doubt you could get it hot enough for brazing with the top in water.

I've been reading up on this since I got home My research led me to an incredibly detailed report on bridge repair (due to it being wrought iron) Appendix D is where it becomes relevent... http://www.lcc.edu/manufacturing/welding/ISPCConference/Newsletter/viewcontent.cgi.pdf

But, it basically looks like it's just grind and weld it! Hahaha, so yeah, it sounds about as easy as I had in my head when I saw it.  I have 100lbs of E7024 rod that I've picked up cheap at yard sales, which I just did a bunch of research on as well, and while it perhaps dumps more heat into the material than I might like, it sounds like it practically pours steel, and is great for filling in large voids.... perfect. I'll start there, and see how it goes... If that doesn't work, I'll look at maybe using my MIG welder with some ER70-S6 like I did with my Peter Wright anvil. One things for sure... I definitely can't make the anvil any worse at this point

I thought about brazing, or, rather, using brazing rods in my arc welder... Also thought about using nickel rods like with cast iron. Xxxx, I thought about what it would take to forge-weld it back together... (That's DEFINITELY not happening though, lol) So I'll do what I was originally thinking, just grinding it, and throwing what I have on hand at it and see what sticks and what doesn't...

Either way, it's gonna probably be at least a couple weeks before I turn on this project. I've got 2 reenactments to demonstrate at almost back to back, and I need to make some wares to sell while I'm there. But we'll see... I'm sorely tempted to play with it right now

[JME1149]

The shape of the anvil, serial number on the left side of the front foot, and that hourglass depression in the base all lead me to strongly believe it is a Hay Budden. The serial number is putting it in the very early 1900's range (don't have AIA handy so can't be more specific.

All this points to the anvil being cast steel rather than wrought iron. This is important because it will make a difference how it welds up for you. From my very limited experience, this should be much easier to weld than dealing with wrought iron.

I can't tell from the photos what the face looks like, but it appears to be straight and flat. Once you weld the bottom back on, if you need to true up the face to the bottom, set it on the face and cut the bottom of the feet. Personally, I'd grind off that Mesaba Auto so the poor old girl can forget about her abusive past. Good luck with the repair and thanks for saving a good anvil.

[ThomasPowers]

Ha!  They couldn't even spell "Messed Up" correctly when they welded on it!

As some brands of anvils have an arc welded base to top it should end up being a great anvil.  If it is a steel top section you will need to do the preheat slow cool on it.  If it's not then it won'e be needed as it will be a low C to low C weld  and a lot of mass to keep the face from going past tempering temp.

[Twilight Fenrir]

7 hours ago, JME1149 said:

The shape of the anvil, serial number on the left side of the front foot, and that hourglass depression in the base all lead me to strongly believe it is a Hay Budden. The serial number is putting it in the very early 1900's range (don't have AIA handy so can't be more specific.

All this points to the anvil being cast steel rather than wrought iron. This is important because it will make a difference how it welds up for you. From my very limited experience, this should be much easier to weld than dealing with wrought iron.

I can't tell from the photos what the face looks like, but it appears to be straight and flat. Once you weld the bottom back on, if you need to true up the face to the bottom, set it on the face and cut the bottom of the feet. Personally, I'd grind off that Mesaba Auto so the poor old girl can forget about her abusive past. Good luck with the repair and thanks for saving a good anvil.

Welll... I have some new insights into this idea... I believe what I actually have is a Sligo anvil, which was still made by Haybudden. I make this guess based on the artifacts I see on the side of the anvil. The "SO" and the "WA" I think are from:

"SOLID WROUGHT"

"WARRANTED"

 

I cannot find any pictures of a Haybudden anvil with any markings resembling those, but they do line up perfectly with this Sligo anvil:

6 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Ha!  They couldn't even spell "Messed Up" correctly when they welded on it!

As some brands of anvils have an arc welded base to top it should end up being a great anvil.  If it is a steel top section you will need to do the preheat slow cool on it.  If it's not then it won'e be needed as it will be a low C to low C weld  and a lot of mass to keep the face from going past tempering temp.

lol, I live on the Mesabi iron range in Minnesota A lot of things are named "Mesaba/Mesabi" here I believe it's wrought to wrought, as I think the "SO" visible in the stamp is "Solid Wrought" as I said in this post a minute ago

[Twilight Fenrir]

Well, I feel better about my ability to guess the size of an anvil! 179 lbs... and it's missing about 2-5 lbs at the moment.

[arftist]

7024 will work but it likes to be in the flat position best. Also need a good sized welding machine.

7018 is an all position rod and like 7024 part of the high speed group (fast fill).

I would use 7018 if you want to keep the anvil upside down.

Alternatively the MIG would be faster and also work fine.

[Shade]

Grind out a good vee, generally a 70° vee is normal for welding to get good access to the root of the weld, if you grind from the opposite sides of the anvil this will give you the best access with minimal grinding and welding.  Vee-ing out 4 sides is both not needed and just extra work.  I don't know if I would trust much of the previous welding done to it.  Also and this is important, you need to alternate welding one side then the other side on every pass this will keep any stresses equal and keep the weldment straight as you weld.

I would suggest some preheat, 200-250°F.

If you are stick (SMAW) welding start with E-6010 in your root passes.  This will aid you in getting good penetration and cleaning out impurities.  Peen the weld well after the first pass to reduce stresses.  Every pass from here on should be peened well.  In deep vees I use a tapered punch ground slightly round to do the peening.  The remaining passes can be run with E-6013, E-7018 or E-7024.  6013 would be the easiest to run and the cheapest route.  7018 rod is a low hydrogen rod and must be kept dry or you could get hydrogen embrittlement.  A proper rod oven will keep the rod at 250-300°F.  (an old fridge with a light bulb is useless, xx18 high titania flux is hygroscopic) I tend to steer people away from 7018 for that reason.  As mentioned 7024 is a fast fill, slow freeze rod and must be welded in the flat position and requires a 250 amp class or better machine so you can have the duty cycle you need also it is not a rod for the beginner as you can easily get inclusions in your weld.

If you MIG (SMAW) get a good 70S-6 wire, like Lincoln's L-56, and run with 75/25 argon carbon dioxide mix gas.  Again peen all your welds and alternate sides welding.  Welding in the flat position will help, if your machine is capable you can run spray transfer or pulsed spray modes, which require different gas mixes, and can be machine dependent. 

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Best way to peen a weld is with a needle scaler. I have an inline I use for cast iron repairs.

The innershield welders we had at the college could do that in a pass per side running .0625 wire. They were making anvils out there at one time back in the 80's. My Dad's friend was laying down beads as big as my thumb while welding the sections together. He could only get a couple in before having to let the anvil cool some.

If that anvil was in my shop, it would get a 1/2" weld prep around the waist after making sure the center sits flat against each other, then a few passes of 7018 and be done with it. There is not a lot of stress in that area,and you are not going to flex the top half hammering on it. 

Keep it simple,and don't over think it. 

[Shade]

A needle scaler will not properly peen a weld.

 

[Twilight Fenrir]

On 7/16/2016 at 11:10 PM, arftist said:

7024 will work but it likes to be in the flat position best. Also need a good sized welding machine.

7018 is an all position rod and like 7024 part of the high speed group (fast fill).

I would use 7018 if you want to keep the anvil upside down.

Alternatively the MIG would be faster and also work fine.

I would love to use my MIG welder... but I'd have to grind it out further to accept the big nozzle on my MIG gun... With the stick welder I just have to be able to get the stick in there

12 hours ago, Shade said:

Grind out a good vee, generally a 70° vee is normal for welding to get good access to the root of the weld, if you grind from the opposite sides of the anvil this will give you the best access with minimal grinding and welding.  Vee-ing out 4 sides is both not needed and just extra work.  I don't know if I would trust much of the previous welding done to it.  Also and this is important, you need to alternate welding one side then the other side on every pass this will keep any stresses equal and keep the weldment straight as you weld.

I would suggest some preheat, 200-250°F.

If you are stick (SMAW) welding start with E-6010 in your root passes.  This will aid you in getting good penetration and cleaning out impurities.  Peen the weld well after the first pass to reduce stresses.  Every pass from here on should be peened well.  In deep vees I use a tapered punch ground slightly round to do the peening.  The remaining passes can be run with E-6013, E-7018 or E-7024.  6013 would be the easiest to run and the cheapest route.  7018 rod is a low hydrogen rod and must be kept dry or you could get hydrogen embrittlement.  A proper rod oven will keep the rod at 250-300°F.  (an old fridge with a light bulb is useless, xx18 high titania flux is hygroscopic) I tend to steer people away from 7018 for that reason.  As mentioned 7024 is a fast fill, slow freeze rod and must be welded in the flat position and requires a 250 amp class or better machine so you can have the duty cycle you need also it is not a rod for the beginner as you can easily get inclusions in your weld.

If you MIG (SMAW) get a good 70S-6 wire, like Lincoln's L-56, and run with 75/25 argon carbon dioxide mix gas.  Again peen all your welds and alternate sides welding.  Welding in the flat position will help, if your machine is capable you can run spray transfer or pulsed spray modes, which require different gas mixes, and can be machine dependent. 

Goodness, that was certainly a very detailed response, thank you! I highly appreciate your input. I understand what you mean about grinding the opposite sides... but for some reason I just can't fathom doing it that way XD I trust the original welds about as far as I can throw the anvil... literally.... I'm pretty sure if I throw the anvil the weld will break I'm hoping it does, anyway. Otherwise I'll cut through the weld to the crack so I can start from scratch.

Would love to use my MIG welder, but I'd have to have a steeper angle to get the nozzle down in there. Plus, I only have 100%CO2 available at the moment.

10 hours ago, BIGGUNDOCTOR said:

Best way to peen a weld is with a needle scaler. I have an inline I use for cast iron repairs.

The innershield welders we had at the college could do that in a pass per side running .0625 wire. They were making anvils out there at one time back in the 80's. My Dad's friend was laying down beads as big as my thumb while welding the sections together. He could only get a couple in before having to let the anvil cool some.

If that anvil was in my shop, it would get a 1/2" weld prep around the waist after making sure the center sits flat against each other, then a few passes of 7018 and be done with it. There is not a lot of stress in that area,and you are not going to flex the top half hammering on it. 

Keep it simple,and don't over think it. 

Well, it's a high enough stress area that the anvil broke in half there Granted, it was probably an imperfect forge weld that did it in, but the Haybudden style anvil has a REALLY narrow waist. Working on the horn, or on the heel would put a lot of stress in that area... though, you're right, probably not enough to break 1/2" of weld all around it...

But what WOULD be an issue, is the two surfaces in the core of the anvil wouldn't meet perfectly. Without it being solid to the core, you're taking away from the efficiency of the anvil, as some energy is going to be lost there.

 

[arftist]

18 hours ago, Shade said:

A needle scaler will not properly peen a weld.

 

In wrought iron?

Perhaps you can explain why?

________________________________

100% CO2 would weld wrought iron fine if not ideal.

If nozzle will not fit you need to remove more metal...deep  groove welding has been disproven. With spray transfer the stick out in a deep enclosed area can easilly exceed an inch.

for some reason my two seperate replies are merged?

Not sure this is a great feature.

[Shade]

2 minutes ago, arftist said:

In wrought iron?

Perhaps you can explain why.

A needle scaler does not have the energy required to deform the weld to relieve the stresses induced during cooling.  Think of it this way, would you use a needle scaler in place of a hammer when forging a piece of steel?

As the weld puddle solidifies and cools it contracts, peening the weld, deforms the weld back into the base metal and relieves the tension stresses created by the cooling of the puddle/weld.

If you have good access to the weld, you can use the ball end of a ball-peen hammer, if not I use the taper punch with the end ground half round.

[natenaaron]

On 7/14/2016 at 6:41 PM, Twilight Fenrir said:

My first impression was that it was about 130 lbs or so... didn't look at it very closely to be honest. At $75 I really didn't care. When I first loaded it into my car, my estimate jumped to 150+ lbs. And once I got it home, looked at it a bit more carefully, I'm leaning towards about 180 lbs. (I really need to pick up a cheap scale if i'm gonna keep buying anvils...)

This is just rubbing it in. 

 

On 7/17/2016 at 8:44 AM, Shade said:

Grind out a good vee, generally a 70° vee is normal for welding to get good access to the root of the weld, if you grind from the opposite sides of the anvil this will give you the best access with minimal grinding and welding.  Vee-ing out 4 sides is both not needed and just extra work.  I don't know if I would trust much of the previous welding done to it.  Also and this is important, you need to alternate welding one side then the other side on every pass this will keep any stresses equal and keep the weldment straight as you weld.

I would suggest some preheat, 200-250°F.

If you are stick (SMAW) welding start with E-6010 in your root passes.  This will aid you in getting good penetration and cleaning out impurities.  Peen the weld well after the first pass to reduce stresses.  Every pass from here on should be peened well.  In deep vees I use a tapered punch ground slightly round to do the peening.  The remaining passes can be run with E-6013, E-7018 or E-7024.  6013 would be the easiest to run and the cheapest route.  7018 rod is a low hydrogen rod and must be kept dry or you could get hydrogen embrittlement.  A proper rod oven will keep the rod at 250-300°F.  (an old fridge with a light bulb is useless, xx18 high titania flux is hygroscopic) I tend to steer people away from 7018 for that reason.  As mentioned 7024 is a fast fill, slow freeze rod and must be welded in the flat position and requires a 250 amp class or better machine so you can have the duty cycle you need also it is not a rod for the beginner as you can easily get inclusions in your weld.

If you MIG (SMAW) get a good 70S-6 wire, like Lincoln's L-56, and run with 75/25 argon carbon dioxide mix gas.  Again peen all your welds and alternate sides welding.  Welding in the flat position will help, if your machine is capable you can run spray transfer or pulsed spray modes, which require different gas mixes, and can be machine dependent. 

Wow.  Great response.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Use a good needle scaler. The one I have will literally flatten a weld out. I have used it for several cast iron repairs and none ever had an issue with cracking / pulling away at the edges from shrinkage.  I keep it hanging over my shoulder, run a bead, drop the stinger over my knees then get at it with the scaler while it is still a dull red. The inline design lends itself really well to this application.  You can cover a lot more area much faster than you can with a hand hammer/punch/modified chipping hammer....

 

Twilight, as I mentioned above, you want the center tight against itself. If you have access to a milling machine they could even be milled flat before welding.The cooling welds will also help pull it together some.  You won't even come close to flexing the top half with a hand hammer, so loss of energy is kind of a moot point. Some brands (Trenton?) were electric welded from the factory, and they did not do 100% welds, just a bead around the center. 

[Shade]

On 7/18/2016 at 1:23 PM, BIGGUNDOCTOR said:

Use a good needle scaler. The one I have will literally flatten a weld out.

xxxx, I spent a lot of time around some big scalers, in my Navy days, but never seen one that could do that, and with my aging body and arthritis I doubt I could handle that puppy today for very long.  If it flattens the weld then I would agree it is working for you.  Good practice to hit it while still hot.

 

[arftist]

5 hours ago, Shade said:

A needle scaler does not have the energy required to deform the weld to relieve the stresses induced during cooling.  Think of it this way, would you use a needle scaler in place of a hammer when forging a piece of steel?

As the weld puddle solidifies and cools it contracts, peening the weld, deforms the weld back into the base metal and relieves the tension stresses created by the cooling of the puddle/weld.

If you have good access to the weld, you can use the ball end of a ball-peen hammer, if not I use the taper punch with the end ground half round.

That's nice though I can't say I agree about the needle scaler not having enough energy compared to hand hammering. Clearly you never tried a needle scaler on nearly molten steel. 

Still waiting for you to explain why wrought iron needs to be peened though.

[Twilight Fenrir]

On 7/18/2016 at 11:29 AM, natenaaron said:

Wow.  Great response.

Right?!?

On 7/18/2016 at 0:23 PM, BIGGUNDOCTOR said:

Use a good needle scaler. The one I have will literally flatten a weld out. I have used it for several cast iron repairs and none ever had an issue with cracking / pulling away at the edges from shrinkage.  I keep it hanging over my shoulder, run a bead, drop the stinger over my knees then get at it with the scaler while it is still a dull red. The inline design lends itself really well to this application.  You can cover a lot more area much faster than you can with a hand hammer/punch/modified chipping hammer....

 

Twilight, as I mentioned above, you want the center tight against itself. If you have access to a milling machine they could even be milled flat before welding.The cooling welds will also help pull it together some.  You won't even come close to flexing the top half with a hand hammer, so loss of energy is kind of a moot point. Some brands (Trenton?) were electric welded from the factory, and they did not do 100% welds, just a bead around the center. 

Well, I have a needle scaler I inherited from my Grandfather, from his days at the mines.... it's a pretty serious looking tool... I've never used it, or even hooked it up though... That's where I got my cutting torch too, which is rated for cutting 9" of steel with the right tip... I could almost cut that anvil in half height-wise in one pass with that baby (Not that I EVER would!) That torch is probably still my favorite tool... very handy in blacksmithing.

You're probably right... but I'm kind of stubborn in a lot of ways. I've got a good solid idea of what I want to do, and I don't mind throwing the time and 20lbs of rod at it... Besides, it's good practice, and I need more excuses to put hours onto my stick welding.