Appalachian Hammer Questions

[Wroughtnharv]

We picked up a couple of the Applachian style hammers the other day.  Each one had some issues and I'm trying to work my way through one of issues on this one.

It hits really hard and there is no way I can see to feather it for light hits.  If you look at the head you will see they added some weight because they said it didn't hit hard enough.  I'm thinking this might be the problem because it appears they almost doubled the head weight and didn't alter the spring to accommodate it.  The spring has an arc when the head is resting on the anvil and the cam pin on the wheel is at TDC.

The belt grabs the motor pulley when the motor is rocked forward.  It's a very direct connection and I don't see where the use of an idler pulley system would change anything.  This is the first experience with this kind of power hammer and any advice would be very much appreciated.  I had a fifty pound Litlle Giant about twenty years ago but sold it because I didn't use it enough to justify having it.  This hammer hits about the same from the get go as the LG did when asked to hit hard.

I've got to finish the foot linkage assembly.  I wanted to have a foot pedal that could be operated from about a range of 120 degrees.  I also want the linkage to be tucked back out of the way so it won't be as easy to accidentally engage the hammer, I don't need a potato chip instead of a finger.  In the next day or so I will do a video with it working on some hot bar so the learned here and have some information to work with.

I appreciate the help and will have the phone with the camera and service available if someone needs photos to see details.

[VaughnT]

I think you're definitely onto something with the spring pack.  Looking at the bottom spring, it appears almost 1/2" thick.  If that's the case, it's way too thick for that length and isn't really springing at all.  Rather, it's acting as a stiffener for the long bar which is doing all the work and not getting nearly the support it needs.

One of the reasons it doesn't "hit hard" and needed the extra weight welded to the head is that the anvil sucks balls.  Even if the table it's sitting on is 4" thick, there's plenty of give because there are so many joints between the anvil and the ground.  It looks like the sow block is attached to the mid-plate which is attached to two legs that go down to the main plate.  Ideally, you want a direct line of fire between the hammer and the earth, not all those joints and spans.  Even a really thick plate will have an element of give to it.

When folks say the anvil portion should weigh a lot, that means to get as much mass directly under the hammer as possible.  Having a 4" thick slab a mile away doesn't benefit the hammer.  Otherwise you could weld an anvil to the side of a battleship and claim it's a million-pound anvil -- and we all know that won't work.  Make sense?

[eseemann]

6 hours ago, Wroughtnharv said:

We picked up a couple of the Applachian style hammers the other day.

Wroughtnharv, was someone selling a used hammer or making them to order. Can you tell me what your motor's RPM is, the ram weight is and your large/small pulley sizes are. The photo with the hammer with the farm in the background looks like something in a magazine.

 

Look forward to seeing it work.   

[Wroughtnharv]

2 hours ago, VaughnT said:

I think you're definitely onto something with the spring pack.  Looking at the bottom spring, it appears almost 1/2" thick.  If that's the case, it's way too thick for that length and isn't really springing at all.  Rather, it's acting as a stiffener for the long bar which is doing all the work and not getting nearly the support it needs.

One of the reasons it doesn't "hit hard" and needed the extra weight welded to the head is that the anvil sucks balls.  Even if the table it's sitting on is 4" thick, there's plenty of give because there are so many joints between the anvil and the ground.  It looks like the sow block is attached to the mid-plate which is attached to two legs that go down to the main plate.  Ideally, you want a direct line of fire between the hammer and the earth, not all those joints and spans.  Even a really thick plate will have an element of give to it.

When folks say the anvil portion should weigh a lot, that means to get as much mass directly under the hammer as possible.  Having a 4" thick slab a mile away doesn't benefit the hammer.  Otherwise you could weld an anvil to the side of a battleship and claim it's a million-pound anvil -- and we all know that won't work.  Make sense?

Vaughn you are a heckuva a lot smarter'n than you look.  What you said makes a ton of sense.

As for the anvil, they've got a piece under the anvil that is a direct shot straight down to the base, there are three legs under the anvil, one in the middle.  BTW I have a 927 lb chunk of steel that I used to use for my anvil stand, claimed I had a 1,000 lb anvil, didn't work that way though.

I have some 4" tubing with 3/4" wall thickness that I can use for the anvil, let me think about it.

One other thing, the bow in the spring bothers me, do you think I should change the connecting rod length to have it straight when sitting at TDC on the flywheel and resting on the anvil?

Thanks again

1 hour ago, eseemann said:

Wroughtnharv, was someone selling a used hammer or making them to order. Can you tell me what your motor's RPM is, the ram weight is and your large/small pulley sizes are. The photo with the hammer with the farm in the background looks like something in a magazine.

 

Look forward to seeing it work.   

I'm the wrong one to be asking those kind of questions.  The hammers were available at a price that we thought reasonable and picked them up.  The motor came with a couple of different pulleys and I chose the smallest to make it easier on the motor and slow down the operation.  

[arftist]

If it is hitting too hard move the Pitman arm connection to the spring closer to the center of the spring and remove the extra weight from the head.

Also straightenting the spring will ease the harmonic imballance.

Straaightening can be done cold by a spring shop.

My main concern right now would be the final ratio; how many blows per minute is it geared for?

The heavier the head the slower it should travel. 

How heavy is the head?

What is the final ratio?

With this info you can get within the basic parameters then fine tune.

Finally about power hammer anvils; a good working anvil weighs 10 times the tup (moving part of the hammer).

A better one weighs even more, with 20-1 considered the point of declining returns.

As little as 6or 7-1 will work but with a notable drop in performance and is not reccomended.

Lastly but most importantly a hollow anvil is useless. The anvil must be solid.

[Wroughtnharv]

IMG_0237.MOV

[VaughnT]

6 hours ago, Wroughtnharv said:

As for the anvil, they've got a piece under the anvil that is a direct shot straight down to the base, there are three legs under the anvil, one in the middle.  BTW I have a 927 lb chunk of steel that I used to use for my anvil stand, claimed I had a 1,000 lb anvil, didn't work that way though.

I have some 4" with 3/4" wall thickness that I can use for the anvil, let me think about it.

The real issue is the joints and spans they created.  While the center column (sow block/anvil) might be a straight shot down to the ground, you can see how it's not one continuous run.  Instead, the top 2' is welded/joined to the thick plate.  Then that's welded/joined to the legs underneath that go down to the bottom-most plate.  All of those junctions rob efficiency.  

When you add up the actual weight that's below the top die's impact point, it's not nearly as high as it should be if they wanted to match everything together.  

What I'd do if I had my druthers, is to cut everything away that's below the tup.  Just go at it with an O/A rig and rip it all out.  Then bring in that beast of an anvil stand and set it directly under the tup.  With a 927-pound sow block, it's be small work to make some replaceable dies to fit it.  A lot of the self-contained hammers use the same two-piece construction technique to make it easier to move and align things, so we know it works well.

Then it'd just be a matter of cleaning up the rest of the hammer, replacing the pulleys and fixing the spring pack.

To give you an idea how stiff the spring pack can be, here are some pictures I've pulled off the interwebz in preparation for my own hammer build.....

I particularly like this design because it illustrates what I was saying about ripping loose the sow block you've got.  Professionally made back in the day when smiths were common, it's a solid design and just need to have an anvil mounted to be put back into service.

 

In both instances, you can see that the spring back doesn't need to have a lot of flex like you might expect.  All it's supposed to do, imo, is take up the shock of the hit so it's not transferred back through the system where it can damage the more fragile components.

 

[Wroughtnharv]

Thank you for your patience with me Vaughn.  I'm in the autistic spectrum which means I am luckier than most people when it comes to figuring things out, I just have to convert it into my way of thinking to get it to sink in.

The way I see it the anvil on this hammer weighs about 90 lb according to the calculator.  The original hammer weighs about 18 1/2 lbs and the add on is about 17 3/4 lbs more total of 36 1/4 pounds, less than 1 to 2 in your formula.

Using the 927 lb chunk of steel is out because it serves as down pressure on the box blade, works like a fire hose in a water fight with the kiddos for that.

I have a great working relationship with two scrap yards.  One of them will sell me bulk at $.10 lb so I can probably find a block or cylinder of solid that weighs about 400 lbs for the anvil, this is doable.

If you can double check my math.  Back in the day I was pretty good at it in my head but that was then and this is now, dyslexia is coming out of nowhere occasionally and I have to triple check the math and sometimes still come up with four different answers.

[Wroughtnharv]

If you look at the hammer head on you will see that the anvil is welded to the channel and then another piece of the same material is welded in between the channel and the heavy angle base.  There are two pieces of heavy wall tubing on each side of the anvil between the channel and the base, one on each side.  The total of the anvil is 32" of 3 / 1/2"  solid bar.

I am going to pull the piece of round bar out between the channel and the new base plate on the frame.  I will build a new section between the channel and the new base plate out of half inch plate.  This will make the main beam solid from the new base plate to the hinge point at the top.  I will remove the rear legs because they aren't needed with the modification.

The main spring leaf is 1/4" X 2 1/2" X 38" and where the additional leaf contacts it there are Knicks in the main leaf.  I see this as a problem.

So Vaughn based upon your photos and what you said I understand that too much spring rate is better than not enough, right?  I can order a new flat spring that is thicker and then add to the connecting rod so that the new spring will be straight when at rest, right?

Thanks again for your patience.

[arftist]

Actually too much spring will greatly reduce the striking force of a spring helve; the flex in the spring allows longer travel of the tup at high blow per munute speeds as well as whipping the tup back down against the work. 

This is why spring helves hit harder than Dupont linkage hammers such as little Giants or tire hammers.

To give an idea of spring rate, my 75# spring helve uses one main leaf of 5/16"x2" with two backups of the same size but shorter, one above the main leaf and one below.

Also your connecting rod, known as a pitman arm should be adjustable.

The hammer cannot work properly otherwise as clear space above the bottom die (or the work if it be thick is required for maximum blow strength. 

Also adjustment is required when using top tools. 

[Wroughtnharv]

23 hours ago, arftist said:

Actually too much spring will greatly reduce the striking force of a spring helve; the flex in the spring allows longer travel of the tup at high blow per munute speeds as well as whipping the tup back down against the work. 

This is why spring helves hit harder than Dupont linkage hammers such as little Giants or tire hammers.

To give an idea of spring rate, my 75# spring helve uses one main leaf of 5/16"x2" with two backups of the same size but shorter, one above the main leaf and one below.

Also your connecting rod, known as a pitman arm should be adjustable.

The hammer cannot work properly otherwise as clear space above the bottom die (or the work if it be thick is required for maximum blow strength. 

Also adjustment is required when using top tools. 

Thanks for the information, it's starting to sink in.

If you look at the photo you will see they extended the anvil through the channel.  I found some 1 1/2" X 4" bar stock in the scrap pile yesterday.  I have enough to attach three pieces from the base to the top of the anvil.  That would add approximately 150 lb to the anvil.  It will make the anvil weigh about 250 lbs and I would get about a 7 to 1 ration.

I have some pillow block assemblies, check out the pivot plate for the motor, and I can use them for the spring hinge point.  I think a small three point top link would make a great way to adjust the pitman arm.

 

This is the second hammer.  It will go in my shop.  The first hammer will go to another shop and we want it working as well as possible before we install it.

[VaughnT]

The second hammer looks pretty decent.  The spring looks to have sufficient stiffness and the anvil goes all the way to the ground.  The anvil still looks a little wimpy, but it's at least serviceable.

On the first hammer, if you want to give it the best chance of being a winner, you'll definitely need to replace the anvil with something solid.  The fact that there's a column on both sides doesn't really help because it's still a very small "anvil" and you have some significant breaks in the energy transfer -- never mind that both bars seem to be leaning a few degrees off plumb.

I still recommend cutting that stuff out and replacing it with a more monolithic construction.

Here's a good photo of a fellow welding up several large plates to act as the sow block for a power hammer.  Because each plate goes straight to the ground, you get the maximum performance possible.  Using plates makes the assembly a bit easier if you don't have access to a solid block.

[Wroughtnharv]

What would we do without the internet????

Okay guys, here's the plan.  I've got a scrap yard that treats me good (ten to fifteen cents per pound) and they are searching high and low, other scrapyards as well, for me some 6" diameter round or square solid stock for anvil material.  I've already grabbed three point top link for the pitman arm.  And in the next day or three I'm going to cut out the anvil on the first machine.  If the heavy stock is located and picked up then I will go back with it.  If it isn't then I will box in the 3 1/2" round stock with 1 1/2" X 4" bar stock to give it some substance.  The first machine will end up looking like a squatty body second machine.

[eseemann]

Wroughtnharv,

You might check for forklift forks. I took one of Thomas Powers' suggestions and went to a few local forklift rental places and was able to score 2 1/2 forks for a total of around 350#. People that fix forklifts need to know that you are not going to re-install a scrap fork  on a forklift. Visit the places and make sure you let them know any old steel will be cut up and you are not going to put them up for sale.

[ThomasPowers]

My local scrapyard had some heavy sections last time I was there; including the barrel of a naval gun, IIRC the smaller section of it was 40000 pounds; but it did have a hole in the center so not usable....unless you offset it!

A neat trick for items where the liability can cause issues is to include "in fact I would be happy if you take a torch and cut it in two before I get it" in your spiel and if they bite get them to make the cut you need for your project!  This of course means you need to know where it needs to be cut...

When we were sourcing oxy tanks that had failed hydrotest for a gas forge building workshop, (way heavier than needed but they were "built like a tank!"), the Hydrotester required that we chop the tanks onsite and even provided the gas to do so!  (We did have to bring our own torch.)

[Bud in PA]

I went to see the surgeon today, I am going to have the third repair to my rotator cuff. I asked his opinion on swinging a hammer. His reply was as long as I can do it with my neck, I like him because he is a wise a$$ like me. The good wife said that I could get a power hammer, God bless her. I have narrowed it down to a Appalachian Power hammer. My wife doesn't know how much power hammers cost, since we are not rich this is my only option. How hard are they to put together, I was a welder about 20 years ago. I am going to purchase the plans from Wizard Forge. Anyone have experience building one? I would appreciate any input you could spare.

[SLAG]

Bud,

You could learn to forge with your good  hand and arm.. It is not exceptionally difficult to do. I learned to forge ambidextrously. Switching arms helps fight fatigue. It also allows me to  forge in awkward situations, where I do not have to move about the anvil as much. Who knows, your trashed arm may recover given enough time and forge capable. Then you could forge with both arms.

Granted, hand forging is not as sexy as a power hammer. But it would not put a big dent in your household budget.

Good luck with the procedure & get well fast.

SLAG.

Edited July 8, 2016 by SLAG
enhanced clarity

[JHCC]

5 hours ago, SLAG said:

Bud,

You could learn to forge with your good  hand and arm.. It is not exceptionally difficult to do. I learned to forge ambidextrously. Switching arms helps fight fatigue. It also allows me to  forge in awkward situations, where I do not have to move about the anvil as much.

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

[SLAG]

As for ME "I gave at the office."

SLAG.

[ThomasPowers]

Historically; as the Master of your shop  by the time your body wore out you had a pile of apprentices and journeyman in the shop to do the grunt work and you could just point out what they needed to do----you: "tap", apprentices: "WHOMP WHOMP WHOMP"

Why the app over the tire hammer?  I participated in a workshop to build a "rusty" and was more impressed with the tire hammers I subsequently saw in use.

[Wroughtnharv]

21 hours ago, Bud in PA said:

I went to see the surgeon today, I am going to have the third repair to my rotator cuff. I asked his opinion on swinging a hammer. His reply was as long as I can do it with my neck, I like him because he is a wise a$$ like me. The good wife said that I could get a power hammer, God bless her. I have narrowed it down to a Appalachian Power hammer. My wife doesn't know how much power hammers cost, since we are not rich this is my only option. How hard are they to put together, I was a welder about 20 years ago. I am going to purchase the plans from Wizard Forge. Anyone have experience building one? I would appreciate any input you could spare.

Man I understand about the rotator cuff surgery, but your third?  One was enough for me.  I stumbled and fell so I intinctively tucked and turned.  I caught an ear on a three point seed spreader and instantly ripped out the rotator cuff tendon along with the statuawhatever one too, the one the pitchers always lose.  It was instantly very limited use of the left arm.  They spent 6+ hours in there and then I broke most of the rules for rehab and I still have 100% range of motion and use of arm almost six years later.  The right one however is a different story, throw like a girl for years now.  They want to go in and scrape and clean and then reattach but I haven't found the time or inclination to go through the event one more time.

Most of the blacksmiths I know are like me.  I wanted the kewel tools to make things but now it is different for me.  I have the kewel things to make and find that I need the tools..  The most amazing new tool that I have found is the flypress.  It doesn't have the brute force of a hydraulic press but man is it fun to work.  There's almost the zen one gets moving metal with a hammer and the control, it's total.

The two hammers we picked up were grabbed because we knew that we were going to need power hammers and had set our hearts to have tire hammers because of cost and the customization potential.  Right now I'm up to my butt in alligators with other projects but am seeing these hammers as being much more than a way to smash hot iron.  I can see one seeing these hammers the way I see the fly press.  It's not the end all of do alls but it can be something slick enough to make WD40 look like glue.

[Bud in PA]

I just got good news today. The surgeon told me no rotator cuff  repair, yea. Then he told me shoulder replacement. Well I told my wife the up side is she won't have to bury me when I go, take me to the junk yard and scrap all the titanium in me. Knees, neck and shoulder. Now my body is worth more than most.

[eseemann]

So does all that  titanium make the TSA's scanner buzz when you go to the airport? I have always wondered if there was a limit to the amount of metal a person could have before generating false positives on the TSA's equipment. The TSA gave Chewbacca (Peter Mayhew) a hard time for his cane that looked like a lightsaber. I figure if the think someone has a real lightsaber maybe they think you have a knife stashed in your shoulder. 

If you ever want to see what your taxes pay for and why the lines are long at the airport check out the TSA's blog. 

[JHCC]

1 hour ago, eseemann said:

So does all that  titanium make the TSA's scanner buzz when you go to the airport? I have always wondered if there was a limit to the amount of metal a person could have before generating false positives on the TSA's equipment. The TSA gave Chewbacca (Peter Mayhew) a hard time for his cane that looked like a lightsaber. I figure if the think someone has a real lightsaber maybe they think you have a knife stashed in your shoulder. 

If you ever want to see what your taxes pay for and why the lines are long at the airport check out the TSA's blog. 

No need; I've got a fair collection of little notes from the TSA that they've left in my checked luggage.  That's what happens when you load up on scrap metal on business trips....

[eseemann]

LOL! now that is funny.