Thedillestpickle Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 First off I would like to say hello! This is my first post here. The truth is I don't forge iron, but I have done some welding and enjoy working with metal. It would be a great hobby for me so registering for this site may come in handy sooner than later. The reason I have signed up is specifically to make this post with a question that I hope some of you will be able to help me with. Oh and before I get into that I noticed that I can't see photos on this forum. If anyone can help with that thank you, I would really love to browse the bottle opener pictures thread. Ok so here is my situation. I am a tree-planter who works in northern Canada and I have been doing this a number of years. I have a very demanding sense of what my shovel should be shaped like. I plant 3000 trees every day so I need that tool to be exactly how I like it. It's piece-work, so if my shovel isn't perfect it is costing me money. A good shovel can make me a lot of money in a 4 month period. So I making myself a new shovel this year and I have found an antique shovel that I wish to convert into my customs shovel. I'll be doing some grinding to bring the shape down to where I want it but I find the angle of the blade to the handle is a little too extreme for my taste. I want to bend the shaft of the shovel just before it reaches the blade. On the shaft of the shovel is printed "Taper Forged Made In Canada Heat Treated". What I want to know is can I simply clamp the shovel in a vice, heat the shaft up with an oxy-acetylene torch and bend the shaft to the angle I want? There will be times when I'll be putting a lot of torque on the shovel, and I don't want to weaken the steel. I have seen other shovels fail in this part of the shaft but those were likely of poor quality. I'm probably being overly cautious posting here looking for advice, however this tool is very critical to me and also I expect I could learn something interesting. I look forward to expanding my knowledge of steel and iron! Thanks for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 Welcome aboard I had a nice long reply with video but it was disappeared! Stupid IPS platform!! I'll have to get back later, I'll be lucky if this posts. someone else can give you an idea of just how difficult a thing you want to try. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickb Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 The short answer is NO. It will be soft and weak in the area you heated. In this state you would have a SSO (shovel shaped object) It would need to be properly heat treated to function as a shovel. It was heat treated by professionals at the factory when it was manufactured. An experienced blacksmith might (repeat might} be able to do it, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klorinth Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 Welcome to the group! As an ex-treeplanter I fully understand what you are asking. I modified all of my shovels. I had short/medium/long D handles for some jobs, and long poles for others. I modified the blades from wide spades used with huge bare roots (6"x18"trees), down to skinny little spears for plugs (4x10cm usually). A bench grinder was my friend. I never tried to adjust the angle though. I am a total newbie here so I am not able to offer any usable suggestions. Frosty and many of the other will be able to help. They have more than enough experience. I expect you are going to need to learn about the heat treating of a shovel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canada goose Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 I suspect that the steel used for shovels is generally a type of air hardening steel . If it is you can heat it and and air cool without softening the steel. If you have some scraps from your modifications you could do some tests. Heat up, cool, and it will be quite apparent if the steel has softened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedillestpickle Posted March 19, 2016 Author Share Posted March 19, 2016 Thanks for the replies so far! Looking forward to that video Frosty! Ok so simple answer sounds like I should just leave it alone. I don't want the metal to bend when I put heavy torque on it. I can make do with the angle as is but it is not ideal. Part of me thinks that the steel is beefy enough that it would function even if softened. In my experience the different qualities of steel make the most difference right at the cutting edge of the blade where it will be striking rocks frequently. An inferior steel at the cutting edge quickly mashes, bends, or I've even seen steel separate into two layers. That being said I have seen a planter torque the shaft right off the blade. Klorinth, from your description I wonder if this antique isn't what you were describing with "bare root shovel". I bought this thing for $5 off an old guy who collects antique stuff. I really feel like the quality of the steel is almost certainly going to be much higher than anything I can buy new today, that's why I went out of my way to hunt this down. I'm still trying to decide how I want to shave it down, whether I keep the kickers etc. Canada goose, how would I go about testing? I imagine heat up with a torch in one are of strip of scrap, then let it cool, place in vice, torque the steel and see if it bends in the heated area first. Thanks guys. I appreciate the enthusiastic responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canada goose Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 You pretty well got my meaning . Tap the piece in the vise with your hammer to get the feel of it,heat and allow to cool, and tap again you will feel if it is still about the same or has gone soft. If it goes soft then I would guess its better not to try heating and bending . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 I doubt an antique shovel would be an air hardening steel save for that the thin cross sectional area might air harden for a water hardening steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedillestpickle Posted March 19, 2016 Author Share Posted March 19, 2016 Bit of google research with those words reveals that this shovel was made by a Canadian company called True Temper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notownkid Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 What about looking for a handle with the angle you desire and leave the metal portion alone? 2nd take another shovel and experiment with it heating and changing the angle and air cooling. True Temper has been around for yrs. You can't see the pictures on earlier post as they were all lost a yr. ago when they had an upgrade to the system and no way to get them back unless each poster replaces them and many of the original people are no longer on the sight. A real pain as myself and many here believe in "A Picture is worth a 1000 words." Good luck, 3000 trees a day my lord! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedillestpickle Posted March 19, 2016 Author Share Posted March 19, 2016 There is no way to really make it work with an angled handle, what I need is to change the bend where the shaft meets the blade. That's a great idea to experiment first with another shovel . I actually bought another $5 shovel that I could use as a prototype. It's also vintage and looks like the same manufacture as well. Ahh that's too bad about the photos, I will check the more recent posts now that I know that. I have another question about bending tempered steel: The second shovel that I bought is a flat square type shovel and I need it to have more concavity in the blade. Is it possible to bend that blade by hammering on an anvil? can I bend it in a vice? I don't want it to crack obviously. Thanks for the help everyone. Good ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 Nope, disappeared AGAIN! See the alternate thread I hope it posts there. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 Going to take another shot at it. Spades and shovels are at least medium carbon steel and doing what you wish isn't a just heat it and bend it operation. The sockets are hardened tapered, curved, thin wall tubing with a slit full length. The original bend is done in a closed die forging press, about 1:44 in the video below. Also note the professiona blacksmith using tools specifically designed to make shovels spends about 2x the time forging the socket than the blade. Heat treat is a little more extensive than it looks I believe the blanks are allowed to air cool in a bin between the finish forming and hardening. The hardening furnace is specific to the purpose. The shovel blades look to be as quenched without tempering, this leads me to think it's a medium carbon steel. Have you considered modifying a clam shovel? They have long narrow blades with little bend to them. Just a thought, I'm always thinking I can't help myself. I even think in my sleep. Frosty The Lucky. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 Frosty, don't feel bad. I tried two posts in a row, both disappeared. I tried to post this about forged shovels which were water quenched, but no info regarding tempering. https://youtu.be/B_xxi2TSdTQ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 Frosty, I just posted a different video in the other thread, looks like the same company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klorinth Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 For large stock I used one similar to that. It was tapered to a narrower point. Maybe half that one. Same basic idea. Everybody, the shovels we use for professional tree planting are much heavier than your standard store bought, backyard garden shovel. They are thicker and higher carbon content. They get pounded into the ground 2-9k times a day every day for months. I wish I still had mine. I passed them on to newbie when I finished my last job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 I assume that you'd like more back bend, to align the blade more parallel with the handle shaft? Personally I would make that bend cold. I'd fit it with a temporary handle and trap the blade under a heavy log... I'd put a branch for fulcrum under the neck of the handle socket and then step on the handle, or bounce, till I got acceptable alignment. You are only trying for a few degrees of bend and I think you'd get it that way. This shovel was made for trenching, which wants a different blade alignment. Do it before you grind it as you'll not be out much if it fails, which I think unlikely. To add more curve to your flat shovel... I would use a well rounded forging hammer and forge it against a stump end. The end grain of the stump will be soft enough to form nice curves as you hammer the concave side of the shovel blade. Lots of firm raps and slowly curling the shape that you want is the way to work it... Be patient. BTW do this cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 5 hours ago, arkie said: Frosty, I just posted a different video in the other thread, looks like the same company. <sigh> We probably both picked the first hit on a search. What a surprise eh? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canada goose Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 In the video it looks like the shovels are given a quick cooling in water and the tempering is from residual heat . Maybe as bigfoot says cold bending is safer. If his method doesn't work Is there a shop nearby with a hydraulic press ? I wonder if a LOT of cold hammering on the blade would lead to work hardening and embrittling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 23 minutes ago, canada goose said: In the video it looks like the shovels are given a quick cooling in water and the tempering is from residual heat . Maybe as bigfoot says cold bending is safer. If his method doesn't work Is there a shop nearby with a hydraulic press ? I wonder if a LOT of cold hammering on the blade would lead to work hardening and embrittling. Yes... but to curve the blade you are not using forging forces. Really by hammering against a soft anvil (stump) you are just curving the blade, not reshaping it. Very little danger of embrittlement involved! Lots of taps though... to get an evenly curved shape whilst only dealing with a small portion of the whole blade at a time. This is probably a ten minute project... for an experienced smith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedillestpickle Posted March 20, 2016 Author Share Posted March 20, 2016 Klorinth: It won't be for large stock, I'll be planting 4-10 plugs mostly. I plan to keep a good amount of that material though. I don't like small blades, deeper blades don't get caught on roots etc. And actually I would correct you about saying that tree-planters use a higher carbon steel than other shovels, that is not the case anymore! I'm not sure how long ago you were planting but nowadays the shovels are junk. workwizer uses soft stainless steel that splits apart after a week of use. And bushpro(the most common) uses soft steel blades welded to a shaft, and componsates for the softness by making it extra super thick. It's not ideal, the old tree-planting shovels from back in the day are awesome. Working with the new blades is like using a butter knife in place of a chef knife. You should check out this shovel Klorinth. It was made by a good friend of mine who apprenticed with a damascus knife maker. It's actually stainless steel damascus. Exceptional work. http://cosmoknives.com/other-tools/ BigFootNampa: Thanks for that tip on curving the blade, that will work nicely. That is correct I want it to be more parallel with the shaft for a number of reasons. I am not sure I would have the ability to bend that metal as you described, it's quite beefy. Perhaps a machine shop could help me. I was planning to go ahead and do this work today, but I'm still waiting on Frosty to get me that info it sounded like he had a caution for me in attempting this. I'm on the fence between cold bending it and heating it to bend. If I do heat it up to bend should I quench it in a bucket of water? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedillestpickle Posted March 20, 2016 Author Share Posted March 20, 2016 On 3/19/2016 at 6:41 AM, dickb said: The short answer is NO. It will be soft and weak in the area you heated. In this state you would have a SSO (shovel shaped object) It would need to be properly heat treated to function as a shovel. It was heat treated by professionals at the factory when it was manufactured. An experienced blacksmith might (repeat might} be able to do it, I am starting to think that I would have a hard time bending the shaft while working with this shovel even if I do soften it. Perhaps I am putting too much worry into the amount of weakening it will cause. I may just go ahead and heat and bend it. If it ends up bending while I work i will just heat it up in the camp fire that night and quench it in a bucket of water haha Why is Frosty having so much trouble with the site? I haven't had any problems yet and I like the way the pictures posted so large, really gets the texture of my photos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 He actually did reply to your concerns but had to do so in a new topic. Reload the unread content page and you should be able to find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 7 hours ago, Thedillestpickle said: Why is Frosty having so much trouble with the site? I haven't had any problems yet and I like the way the pictures posted so large, really gets the texture of my photos. The site software is ...quirky. You've only been here a hot minute; give it time, and you'll have just as many hair-pullingly frustrating experiences with things not posting or loading, or posting twice, or being unable to get rid of a quote that you didn't mean to include, or, or, or... as the rest of us. Enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedillestpickle Posted March 20, 2016 Author Share Posted March 20, 2016 Ok I see how the site is weird now. I managed to delete the unwanted quotes though! I heated the shaft and bent it. I did a quick in and out dunk it water to semi-halfway quench it without making it completely brittle. I obviously don't know what effect that had. At any rate it's done now so I am on to the grinding and adding a handle. Thanks for the welcome! and BTW I really enjoyed watching those shovel forging videos.... that is really cool to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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