Michael Cochran Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 I posted this here since it relates to a knife I'm working on but it could possibly be applicable in other areas. I'm working on a knife using hardware store only items and started work on the blade today. I hooked up my gas forge for better temperature control and to have a cleaner fire than I could in coal. I broke a chainsaw chain into even lengths and arc welded the ends together and proceeded to bring it up to welding heat. I fluxed once when it first started showing color and again when it reached a high red/low orange color and then left it to come up to heat. After letting it soak for a few minutes I poked it with a 1/8 steel rod to see if it would stick (somethin I read about in a book). When the rod stuck I pulled my chain stack out and tapped it lightly at first then more aggressively. All is great the weld took and I brought it back up to heat to further refine the weld and better consolidate the chain into a solid bar. Once I was satisfied it was solid and welded solid I cut a little more than halfway through using my hot cut brushed it and folded it on itself. After tapping it and getting everything nice and close I fluxed it and put it back in the fire. I left my folded billet in for a while to soak good and when it looked as I'd did earlier (when my test rod stuck) I pulled it out and started to weld the two pieces together just as I did with the original stack. Problem is it wouldn't stick. For whatever reason instead of sticking when hit the two sides would slide to the sides. I stopped trying to weld and slid them back together and refluxed and brought the temp back up and let it soak a little longer. Brought it out and they slid apart again when hammered. After three attempts I noticed that the seam has become lumpy (as if striking sheet metal with a ballpien hammer). I decided it was best to quit before I ruined what I had. I think when I finally calm my frustration I'll go clean and level out the flatter sides and try welding it together that way and proceed as planned. Can anyone give me some suggestions before I sink any more time etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted January 15, 2016 Author Share Posted January 15, 2016 I ran out to the shop to get a couple pictures showing the mating surfaces straight down and one of them from the side so you can see the lumps that developed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Sounds like an alloy problem or perhaps it's not clean enough you might need to sand or grind to remove a persistent oxide layer. Chain saw chains are made up of a number of different materials, the links are high tensile steel with good abrasive resistance, the pins have high shear strength and the teeth of course are much harder and wear resistant. The differences is what makes for such nice patterns. Not knowing the brand or what alloys are speced by the manufacturers to meet the use specs it's a tough call saying what's going wrong. Being as you got welds once the difference is in the forge welding effects, heat being the first on that list. All that meandering yak is my way of saying I THINK it's oxidization and you need more aggressive removal processes. Just folding it up swiping a brush over it and fluxing isn't doing it. A more aggressive flux might be the answer though but . . . Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Usually when a weld doesn't take it's going to come down to a few problems. Inadequate heat, the billet can be at welding temp on the outside, but the inside still be too cool. Oxidation and other contaminates can keep a weld from taking, is your forge running lean? Lastly, some chainsaw blade can have the cutting teeth chromed. It's always a good idea to cut the teeth off before welding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted January 16, 2016 Author Share Posted January 16, 2016 Ok I dug the package out of the garbage and it looks like I wasted my time and fuel trying to weld this up. I appreciate the help you guys gave and telling me I need to pay more attention to what I'm tryin to weld Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Not only did you waste time, fuel etc. You also ruined a fine chainsaw chain. The upside is... in the University of life you got another credit, only a few thousand more to go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted January 16, 2016 Author Share Posted January 16, 2016 1 hour ago, ianinsa said: Not only did you waste time, fuel etc. You also ruined a fine chainsaw chain. The upside is... in the University of life you got another credit, only a few thousand more to go! I know I ruined it, all it needed was a little sharpenin and it would've been like new again. I've decided I'll have to recheck my priorities with this project. deadline is still a long ways off but I should probably try something I'll be able to experiment with heat treating which the chain wouldn't have given me enough tries so I guess that's a blessing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Next time try a drive chain and weave a little nickle "gas" welding rod in for flash. Oh well, a dead chainsaw chain, don't bother me any. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Hello: OK I am no expert on this stuff as far as chainsaw chains go but I do know a little about solid phase welding... If "Chromized" means what I think it does that could be part of your problem right there. Cr is nasty stuff to weld under a hammer as it gets downright cranky to work with... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted January 17, 2016 Author Share Posted January 17, 2016 Thanks for the suggestion, Frosty. It'll be a while before I try chain again but when I do I'll see if that helps any. JPH, I've seen enough of your work to know any advice you have is well worth listening too. I definitely know to watch out from chrome now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 What I've found is that most weld failures come from a lack of adequate temp and soak time. You didn't mention the temp you attempted to weld at or your soak time. For me, I usually weld at between 2315-2330 and soak anywhere between 10-15 mins depending upon the material thickness. I heat the forge to welding temp, put the billet in and wait for the forge to come up to temp, then soak. Do not remove the billet after you put it in and turn it frequently. Steels with alloys require more soak time than the simple 10 series. When you do take it out, tap lightly at first to stick it, then back into the forge and hammer a little harder on the next trip to the anvil or power hammer. Try this method and please tell us how that works for you. Btw, I don't use flux, but you may need it with chain saw and cable. There isn't much along the lines of what you are trying to do that can't be welded. John www.gearhartironwerks.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted January 19, 2016 Author Share Posted January 19, 2016 Unfortunately I don't have a way of measuring the temperature inside my forge. I hope to one day be able to get the required equipment but for now everything is done by watching the steel for clues and using a magnet when necessary. I know that's not the best/most reliable way to work but it worked for centuries so I'm not too terribly worried. I will be tryin to use the bigger piece and see if I can get anythin out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 If you want to get serious about forge welding damascus/pattern welding with consistency, you need to have forge control. You can do that for about $60. Until you make that commitment, you're just going to guess and most likely waste material. The key is to eliminate the variables, heat being a major one. I wish you the best. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 "it worked for centuries" So you willing to put in 60 hour weeks as an apprentice for no/little pay for 7 years to get the skills like they did for centuries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 19 hours ago, gearhartironwerks said: If you want to get serious about forge welding damascus/pattern welding with consistency, you need to have forge control. You can do that for about $60. Until you make that commitment, you're just going to guess and most likely waste material. The key is to eliminate the variables, heat being a major one. I wish you the best. John One day when I have the money to spare I'll get the things I need to measure temps I the forge. I usually use solid fuel just use gas for cleanliness as I mentioned in my first post. 7 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: "it worked for centuries" So you willing to put in 60 hour weeks as an apprentice for no/little pay for 7 years to get the skills like they did for centuries? If I didn't have a family and bills to pay I would consider it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Ain't that the truth! I spent a year apprenticed to a swordmaker about 1983/1984---No Pay, 6 days a week in the shop, 2 meals a day with his family. Then I got married and took on 2 kids and we had two more and I had to get a "real" job to support them. Been 32 years so far and I'm up to 7 grandkids now. All my kids are on their own and doing well and I'm beginning to look towards retirement and the possibility of getting to spend more time in my shop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEAP of JEEP Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 15 hours ago, Michael Cochran said: If I didn't have a family and bills to pay I would consider it. Why does real life have to get in the way so often. Even now, I am sitting at work, thinking about the design of the camp knife my wife asked me to make her for her camping bag. I started on the billet for it last night, but now this ridiculous thing called, "Making a living" is getting in the way of all my fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Good Morning, "Making a living" is getting in the way of all my fun! Welcome to the real world!! Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 Gearhart, out of curiosity what do you use to measure temps? Heap, I have several projects sitting around waiting to get finished whenever I finally get the time. I have to put sidin on my new shop I have a few knives to finish as well as the projects for my wife (key hooks by the front door, a toy box and bookcase for our two year olds room, and the list goes on). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEAP of JEEP Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 9 minutes ago, Michael Cochran said: I have to put sidin on my new shop I have a few knives to finish as well as the projects for my wife (key hooks by the front door, a toy box and bookcase for our two year olds room, and the list goes on). I'm right there with ya... as soon as my wife found out I was thinking about building a forge, my "honey-do" list exploded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Last weekend I got to visit my wife and shop; but she was low on firewood so the free day I had was spent cutting and splitting firewood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 MC I use a pid reader from Auberins (www.auberins.com) #SYL 1512AR. It requires 120v power. The K thermocouple rated up to 2350+ can be purchased from Ebay , Omega or McMaster-Carr. McM-Carr #562-692-5911 is the one I usually use but you'll need to buy a ceramic head to connect the wires. You have to be certain the thermocouple you buy is rated for the temp. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 I did the very same thing, Thomas, I was looking forward to getting some shop time when I was told I needed to go cut some more firewood. The next day I was told I needed to go pickup and install a wood heater in the house cause the fireplace just is t enough and the wife doesn't wanna use the gas heater if she doesn't have to. Gearhart, I'll look up the parts you suggested and see what I can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Warm Wife---No Strife! (she uses a woodstove nights and the sun most days) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 We've never used a wood heater until this week and when I got up Monday morning (no work on account of weather) I built a fire in the heater (cause I managed to let it go out Sunday night) it went from 40 to 80 F in a matter of about 45 minutes. We were the only idiots in the neighborhood with the doors open with it in the 20s outside lol. It didn't drop below 80 for14 hours that day. Next mornin at 6am it was 70 then this mornin when I got up it was 80 again. We really need to learn how to better control the temp on that thing lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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