Shamus Blargostadt Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 so.. I've been pounding steel since I got the bug last March. I'm learning a lot, making plenty of mistakes, and learning more. I've been practicing basic smithing tasks in between making sorry (but progressively less pathetic) knives. In the past couple of weeks I've been practicing scrolls and using the edge of the anvil to abuse this poor attempt at making tongs. I have one monster piece of spring steel, 1/2" x 4" x 9" I am interested in drawing out into a big ugly machete type blade. I want to draw this out into around 1/4" x 3" and to whatever length that will translate to. I've been pounding until my arm says "enough" but my progress is woefully slow. I've been heating up half to red-orange, using the angled/pointy side of the hammer to make divots, then I'm trying to hammer the divots out with the flat side (reading the "Backyard Blacksmith" by Lorelei Sims and trying to follow her tips.) I'm using the flat surface of the anvil. I'm not making very deep divots (not for lack of trying) and using a 3lb hammer. Trying this on the wide part of the bar, then trying to hammer on the sides before it cools. So am I going about this the right way? Most of my effort is brute force and I suspect this is a clue I'm going about it the wrong way. My thought is, if I can't draw this thing out then I probably shouldn't even think about damascus. thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnie Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 If it is red, it is not hot enough in my opinion. Always let the fire, do as much of the work as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borntoolate Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 with just your arm that is going to be a lot of drawing out. Get a piece of steel closer to what you want. MUCH closer!!!! If you must draw this one out. Find a sledge and use a striker. Naturally this creates a whole new list of safety concerns and/or equipment needs / concerns. And I am no expert. But my personal rule is i don't make plate with my hammer and anvil. But it can be done. Consider the number of heats it will take and how much metal will be lost due to scale. IF you have access to a power hammer that is a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I'm hardly an expert, so take this for what it is worth: You can work "divots" into both sides of the stock by using the anvil horn under the stock while you are hammering with the peen side of the hammer. This greatly increases the effectiveness of each blow. Flatten thereafter, as you have been doing, using the flat portion of the anvil, but keep your steel hotter (at least orange, yellow if possible) so it moves faster. Also make sure the steel is heated "all the way through". With thicker stock you can end up with only surface heating, and your blows won't penetrate deeply. Working tool steel is a compromise between decarb and being able to move the metal. Long heats at high temperatures will cause decarb (bad), but if it takes too long at the red-orange heat you run into similar issues. It does take an awful long time to hand hammer down that size tool steel stock (I turned a similar size spring into a long, socketed, spear head and it was a bunch of work, though on reflection it may have only been 3/8" thick). Still think of all the exercise you are getting... This is why the big boys have those power hammers or hydraulic presses. Check out Brian Brazeals videos on tapering to see other techniques for reducing metal using other sides of the hammer and the edges of the anvil. Some of those techniques may also be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Striker; remember a smith working on his own without a powerhammer is pretty much a modern thing. Centuries ago they knew better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamus Blargostadt Posted December 28, 2015 Author Share Posted December 28, 2015 Is it an accurate assumption that trying to hand hammer a billet sandwich of different steels for pattern steel is going to be as difficult, if not harder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Why I start with 25 layers of BSP&PS and make fairly small billets when doing it all by hand. Your question's answer is Yes, No, Maybe depending on size of billet and alloys used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 BSP&PS? Please clarify Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan the blacksmith Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Drawing out metal with 2 flat faces is very in-effective. You need to reduce your surface area contact, creating more pounds per square inch! an easy way to do this is to draw out over the horn with a round faced hammer, such as a rounding hammer. If you don't have a rounding hammer, take an angle grinder to the face of a hammer. You could use brazeal/hofi tecneque of drawing over the edge, but if you are a beginner, I would not recommend that. Keep your steel hot and use the biggest hammer you can use! Forge on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 50 minutes ago, latticino said: BSP&PS? Please clarify I'm pretty sure that was a typo and he meant BSB & PS. Band Saw Blade and Pallet Strap. Shamus: If you have your heart on using stock that heavy then you should consider cutting into smaller pieces. There are a couple ways to calculate how far stock will draw out to. A 4" long piece of the stock you have drawn down to 1/4"x3" would be about 10.666" long not accounting for loss to scale. Unfortunately working that size stock down that far will result in a LOT of scale loss. You can make a spring fuller and use a sledge hammer, that's pretty easy and straight forward especially if you have a welder. 1" dia is maybe max but don't go smaller than 1/2" dia. Cut a blank say 7-8" long for a large knife, you can always trim the excess and there will be scale loss and weld a steel bar to it for a handle. Isolate the section for the tang on the close radiused edge of your anvil and draw it down on the spring swage. Start at the end and work your way back on each pass. If you have a reasonable radius on your fuller you can space the divots so you can drive them down with the fuller too and spend much less time on the face. Heck, even as minimized as lateral bulge will be using a fuller you can draw it down with the same fuller. Every blow on the fuller is worth several on the face. Get the tang drawn down to close to finished and begin working the blade. If you cut a little too much for the tang you might be able to cut the welded handle off and use the tang or just weld the handle to the tang. Work in the mid yellow and stop when it cools to high orange and give it a quick swipe or two with the wire brush when it comes out of the fire so you don't drive scale into the billet. However you do this it's a LOT of work using stock that size aiming for finish that small. I'd hunt up a coil spring coiled from about 1" stock and use it. It'll curve, pull and warp a whole lot less getting it profiled than will leaf spring. Better still it's a whole LOT less work, it's already pretty close to what you're looking for. Frosty The Lucky. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 I thought divots were on a golf course. Anyway, the sharper the peen marks, the more lengthy the 'cleanup' to gain a smooth surface again. One way would be to use the center of the horn as a bottom "fuller" and a ball face hammer on top. In this way, the forge indentations will be longer and will require less 'cleanup.' The job can be done sans power hammer or striker, but it will require many bright heats and much perseverance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 I like to use my large anvil's horn and the 3#? straight peen hammer whose peen looks like a piece of 1" rod fastened to the hammer head. I stand facing the horn and traverse the workpiece at 90 deg to the horn. I heat first side up, second heat second side up, third heat flatten on face of anvil. However when I need a long taper on a good sized chunk of leaf spring I try to source a tapered spring and save 80% of the effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamus Blargostadt Posted December 29, 2015 Author Share Posted December 29, 2015 Thank you, guys. I'm constantly amazed at how much I learn here from what I fear are really dumb questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 To add to the confusion, I use a 3# double jack hammer with one face ground to a smothe half circle, and use exactly TP's method over the horn. Lots less clean up. Also, don't choke up on the hammer, use a full over the head swing. The body is an amazing machine, tilt the hammer head up as you lift it (eliminates the leverage of the handle) and lift the hammer strait up as high as you can (tipi toes wouldn't be inappropriate) now holding on to the hammer just hard enough not to throw it across the shop (I use a modification of a sword grip, hod fairly tight with the thumb and forefinger and progressively lighter with the other fingers) now exelerateand guide (don't try to climb up on top of the hammer and force it) the hammer down leveling out close to your body (head under your shoulder) as you strike. A few deliberate blows will move more steel than pecking away like a rabid chillalla Further, tho you wand to have the hammer face meet the stock level and flat, you are trying to drive the head into the stump. If you aim your blow at the stock, you aren't going to impart all the energy you can into it. Like punching a fool, if you aim for his nose you will make his eyes water, but if you aim for the back of his head (threw his face) the back of his head will meet the floor with a satisfying thud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickb Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 I anything fails in the long overall process, then you have wasted a lot of time, effort, Fuel, etc. I suggest you put it aside and consider it a lesson. You are better off starting with a piece of steel closer to what you are making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Experience has value Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamus Blargostadt Posted December 29, 2015 Author Share Posted December 29, 2015 2 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said: Like punching a fool, if you aim for his nose you will make his eyes water, but if you aim for the back of his head (threw his face) the back of his head will meet the floor with a satisfying thud. I love it! Learn how to move steel and properly punch a fool for the price of one post! My primary goal in this chunk of metal is to learn how to move steel, the knife is really just an excuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Of course when you start running you don't start with marathons; you build up to them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 3 hours ago, Shamus Blargostadt said: I love it! Learn how to move steel and properly punch a fool for the price of one post! My primary goal in this chunk of metal is to learn how to move steel, the knife is really just an excuse. Nothing wrong with doing it just because it's there. Well so long as we're not talking punching people in the nose. Knowledge is good, often negative knowledge is more valuable than the other. I'm always on the lookout for "don't do THATs!" Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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