Frosty Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 In the katana it's considered a feature and not a flaw!That's the difference between a REAL sword and a fantasy wall hanger Thomas. Do we have to explain everything? That's the easiest way Owen, if we were into doing things the easy way we'd just buy the stuff we make by hand.I believe heat treat then grind is how the big knife/blade companies do it. It's how I'd do it by preference. Relieving stresses without effecting heat treat to prevent curving during grinding isn't so hard to do.Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Not going to argue with a fellow who plays Irish Stand Down with a *vegetable*! One reason I was trained to do the final grinding on a blade after heat treat bare handed was to make sure it didn't heat above the tempering temperature---all the alloys we used would let you know it was time to cool it way before that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Ayup, using a grinder on tool or other high carbon steel to avoid ruining the heat treat is a jr. high school shop class standard. Heck it was on the test before you could touch a tool in the shop. America is losing so much by trying to turn all the kids into degree holders instead of teaching them marketable trades.I started to reply with a snappy rejoinder about being "squashed" but that'd imply I was a fruit! And I'm not, I'm a NUT. <grin>Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 As pointed out in another descusian, liability and lack of qualified teachers are also factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastRonin Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Ayup, using a grinder on tool or other high carbon steel to avoid ruining the heat treat is a jr. high school shop class standard. Heck it was on the test before you could touch a tool in the shop. America is losing so much by trying to turn all the kids into degree holders instead of teaching them marketable trades.I started to reply with a snappy rejoinder about being "squashed" but that'd imply I was a fruit! And I'm not, I'm a NUT. <grin>Frosty The Lucky. I thought you seemed a little 'cracked'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Always told the kids that "fruit & nut" stands were famalie reunions. The. I would acuse them of being canables ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Always told the kids that "fruit & nut" stands were famalie reunions. The. I would acuse them of being canables ;-) Our family has a fair share of flakes too.I thought you seemed a little 'cracked'. Pretty seedy shot there.Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Ah, the breakfast cerial famaly! I know that all to well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 I started to reply with a snappy rejoinder about being "squashed" but that'd imply I was a fruit! And I'm not, I'm a NUT. <grin>Frosty The Lucky. You were 'Buttered'? Folks, If one was to duel with Frosty and you get to choose the weapons it would be naïve to choose "wit and intellect" as that would leave him well armed!Frosty, the only reason so many of us 'take the xxxx out of you' is...., well..., YOU MAKE IT SO EASY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 I think he bates the squrels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Charles, a lot of folk a little further south 'baste' their squirrels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 nope, not even going there, Ian. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) Ian: the thread right now has me wondering if you baste your squirrels by taking the xxxx on them?Been buttered a couple times it was . . . GOOD! In an adult way that is.One of my favorite things about hanging on IFI is how many folk take shots at me, it makes me feel to home and exercises my brain in two ways. first it was pretty hard to come up with snappy rejoinders after the accident. Sometimes they'd just pop out but most of the time it wasn't as easy as it should've been. The more you guys play word games with me the better I get.The other exercise that's REALLY good for me is learning to think and edit before I "Submit Reply". Talking before thinking is a TBI issue that's tough to get over. I almost let myself go on a roll with the OP after his first snotty reply. I usually remember to play nice with children but sometimes they just need a good spanking and it's too easy for me I'd rather not go there. I engage people I shouldn't and I can be pretty vicious verbally, it can be really hard not to. So, it's good practice for me to have to deal with knot heads now and then it makes me use restraint and I need to get good at that again.It's so much fun to take the xxxx on my friends and get it back. Makes me feel good. It's good to have friends, maybe even shake hands some day. Thanks for being there you've made this thread a good thing.Frosty The Lucky. Edited May 21, 2015 by Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malice9610 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 reading some of you take shots at each other is one of the things that appealed to me about this site, reminds me of my dad and his friends ( now uncles ) talking smack to each other as they worked in my dads garage building heavy duty " rod iron " bird cages when I was a young kid. Thank you gents for explaining the meaning Sabering to me, gives me another variable to add to my " consider this " list of things to think about when contemplating a project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 We honestly dont mind questions, even simple ones, its the people that wont read what had been posted, even when directed there, and still insist they know more than those of us that are doing these things already! It is like some people only want to fight, so we boot them. This is a place that smiths of any stage of learning, beginner or advanced, cant share and learn. if a poster can not even pretend to be adult about it, they are not ready to play with fire, and it may just make them wet the bed anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 We honestly dont mind questions, even simple ones, its the people that wont read what had been posted, even when directed there, and still insist they know more than those of us that are doing these things already! It is like some people only want to fight, so we boot them. This is a place that smiths of any stage of learning, beginner or advanced, cant share and learn. if a poster can not even pretend to be adult about it, they are not ready to play with fire, and it may just make them wet the bed anyway. I think it would be nice if sometimes you all answered the questions without being condescending and ripping into people, and then whooping it up about how big and clever you all are. Thats how I read it again and again. Seem to have missed your 'helpful' answer to the OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 one day, Master Frost. The coffee pot is on, and I xxxx sure will not turn a friend away. Goes for most of y'all, fate finds you in my neck of the woods, I'll set a place at the table. Sorry you feel that way, Basher. Most of the time I feel like , one after answering the same question repeatedly (often in the same 24 hour period) the old guys get understandably grumpy "don't you kids even know how to read?!" Or "are you kids to lazy to read?!" Now not to bash folks with learning disabilities, one of my best friends has a hard time with Dr. Sues, but because of that he wouldn't be on line, much less here. And second, after trying to point a fool in the right direction you want to beat your head against the keyboard, so its understandable that the folks involved blow of a bit of steam. Lets face it, no state approved class for CCW doesn't include a bit about legal responsibility and liabilities. If he had taken the class he would know that "defensive wounds" with a knife will send him to prison. If you feel so threatened to use a weapon to defend yourself (even your hands) you are not going to play around with "defensive wounds" you are out to neutralize the treat in the most expeditious manor, IE kill your opponent, you don't draw a gun and threaten to shoot, that is a crime, brandishing. If you felt you could threaten him, you did not need to draw your weapon, same with "defensive wounds" a tern more properly used to describe your victims wounds than your intent. If you didn't try and kill the fool, you didn't need to draw your knife. Now in practical terms, in a knife fight that isn't the best strategy, actually knife on knife usually results in disabling hand and forearm wounds that effectively end the fight, but as juries and lawyers have never been in that situation, it falls under "mutual combat" in their eyes and off to prison you go. So as Steve pointed out, he was full of BS, simply lying, a kid talking $%##. So now a bit of steam is being blown off, a bit off good natured ribbing between friends. I admire your work, Basher. Why don't you step up and pay it forward when the new guys ask ignorant questions? Can't blame you for staying away from the idiotic questions, but all to often you don't know if its a new guy that doesn't know enough to ask the "right question" or an idiot pounding sand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 I think it would be nice if sometimes you all answered the questions without being condescending and ripping into people, and then whooping it up about how big and clever you all are. Thats how I read it again and again. Did I come across as ripping into him? I gave him as honest and straight forward an answer as I could. He didn't like the answer and lectured ME about how I SHOULD have told him what he wanted to know. I did NOT tell him to shut up and read, nor the other things he accused me of. I responded in kind and in pretty restrained language and manner. His next reply was that of a smart arsed kid and so far off the mark as to be foolish. It didn't even come up to the level of crap high school kids used to talk when I was one.You read my responses as condescending? I tried talking to him like an adult. Was that condescending in your opinion? Did YOU answer his question? Could you?Yeah sure you can but did you? What IS the "best" steel for a rank beginner make a stock removal blade from, one that won't saber when the completely inexperienced fellow heat treats it? Go ahead, shame us all and tell us what our answer SHOULD have been. Wouldn't that be more productive than just ripping into us?Okay so we've blown off some steam at someone who couldn't act in an adult manner's expense. You're tired of reading our sniping at each other. We get it, trading crap with friends isn't for everybody and we don't hold it against you. It's pretty easy to set your preferences to "Ignore," threads or people. That way you won't have to put up with us.Sorry about the rant gents, maybe we got a little carried away and should start a more easily "filtered" thread and not annoy people.Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Wasnt their a "dont feed the trolls thread? Be a good place to vent, lol BTW, you TBI is showing ;-) (wish I had an excuse, maybe mom did drop me on my head as a kid...)from all I've seen, Owen is a XXXX good smith and a stand up guy. Maybe us Yanks are just a bit rough and tumble for some one from the UK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Twas my sister that dropped me...of course she wasn't tall enough to get much good out of it...(2 years older than me) Charles can you still ask her and see if she laughs? I drove my Mother to Arkansas this spring for her Step-Father's 90th birthday and we had a lot of long discussions over our early days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 You're right Charles, I took Owen's comment badly. It strikes closer to home to hear such from people I consider a friend or at least acquaintance I like and respect.Owen, please except my public apology for the rant. My bad.I'd give most anything NOT to have this excuse.Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJergensen Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Owen has a real point. I went back to the first post just to refresh my memory. Andrew asked a couple of fairly reasonable questions, acknowledged that he wasn't going to jump right into a sword and generally showed that he'd done some reading. It sounds to me like he's trying integrate some chaotic info. He really got more of a public humiliation than an answer.So, here's what I think we should've said:Andrew,I'm glad to see you know to start with a smaller project and work up! That's exactly what you should be doing.As far as an alloy goes, 6150 is often used for swords. It's a tough spring steel. It's sometimes used for larger knives for that reason as well, but often knives have higher carbon to improve edge retention with a potential reduction of the toughness and springy-ness.The "sabering" of a katana is caused by a differential quench where part of the blade is insulated by a clay coating. A good, even quench in an appropriate medium (probably oil, depends on alloy) has minimal distortion. You could manage to pre-compensate like you mention but that would be phenomenally tricky.Hopefully that helps you make sense of what you've been reading. Show us your work as you go - we love pictures. The experts here give great feedback! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 ah, great thing about growing up, Mom is one of my best friends (tho she still treets me like I'm 12 and a half some times) she would claim it was good for me, lol. I took Owen's comment a bit personal my self, I've seen to mant good smiths (and better peaple) leave IFI because of trolls, idiots and spitfull peaple. Some still lurk but rarely post others are just gone, I miss their pesonalities, company and wisdom. I would hate to add Basher to that list. You set a great example, Jerry. Lots of young men and women coming home with their eggs scrabled, always good to have some one that can stand up and say "if I can do it, so can you". We are just tools, and you have been forged, shaped, quenched and tempered for a reason. If it is to set an exaple for others, so be it. Proud to count you as a "friend" (I don't bandy that turm around lightly)Glad to see you step up Mr. Jergensen. I'm afraid I'm a bit touchy about real world defensive/offensive tools (weapons) I appretiate well made display peices (wall hangers) and demistration peices (props) but all to often the clutch slips between my mouth (fingers?) and brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Okay Eric. You're suggesting we should carefully word our replies to what, prevent hurting someone's feelings or mistakenly treat them like adults?What would you suggest I respond to this? On 5/19/2015, 10:45:05, Frosty said:NO, I didn't quote you out of context, I just boiled your excess verbage to it's actual meaning. Just adding words doesn't necessarily increase meaning.Really? Check it:What's the best current production motorcycle for a Paris to Dakar rally given a max support crew of 3 in a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van?vs.What's the best motorcycle ever, Daddy?If you see the difference in those two questions as merely "excess verbage", stick to bangin metal and step away from the internet, dude. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Did I "quote" him out of context? I clicked the, "Quote" button so maybe it isn't?From my, "stick to banging metal and step away from the internet . . . dude," perspective it's nothing but meaningless gum flapping. Okay, so maybe I'm at fault for not doing his research for him. HE claimed to have done a LOT of reading. If so why look for easy answers? His questions have been answered a lot of times, including how to control bending during heat treat.Was I a little short with him? Okay, I'll buy that, maybe. I don't have much if any patience with people who deliberately "misunderstand," thinking it makes the other person look stupid. I have better things to do with my time.Frosty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 "Wise men dont argue with fools, the bystanders cant tell the difference!"i think Steve was just saving us from our selves Master Frost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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