Newbie questions

[Andrew Zimba]

Hello all!

I've got a few questions for you guys.  Now I have been doing a LOT of reading, and I hope these are not the typical newb kinda inquiries.

I wanna make a sword, but I realize there is a ton involved.  I want to start out with some smaller blades first - a large knife, a machete-length blade, etc and work my way up to a 30-or-so-inch practical-tactical sword.  Going to stick with stock removal, no forging.  My MA training is in filipino/thai arts (both blade and stick), so i want to stick with relatively straight single-edged weapons.  

Intuitively the thickness differential between spine and edge makes me think that sabering of the blade shape will be a major problem as blade length increases.  

What steel would be best steel alloy to work with to avoid the issue as much as possible with the eventual long blade? 

Most of the information I run across on single-edged blades have to do with katanas, so keeping a straight back does not seem to be a massive consideration.  What needs to be taken into account when heat-treating longer single-edged blades in order to keep them from looking like a katana with point not in line with handle? Does the raw blade geometry need to be different to account for inevitable warping towards the thick side of the single-edged blade?  Or are there heat treating processes that can minimize this type of differential contraction warping?  

Many thanks in advance for any info you guys can provide!

[Steve Sells]

If you can stop trying to put the the kata before the horse stance,  Start with a small blade and as you learn what you are doing this will work itself out.  Welcome to the forum,  try reading the the knife chats most of that was covered there also.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Steve Sells

[Andrew Zimba]

I guess I just like to have the long game planned out.  Definitely not going to jump into long blades right away, but I was hoping I could get some pointers to specific info on the site or elsewhere relating to non-curved single-edged blades.  

[Andrew Zimba]

For instance, what would be the best steel to start getting comfortable with given that I know I'm looking to eventually move into the type of blades I've mentioned above? 5160?  1060?

Edited May 19, 2015 by Andrew Zimba

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Andrew glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the IFI gang live within visiting distance.

Ah, Newb questions. It's not the questions that mark you as a beginner it's the expectations. You lack enough knowledge to ask good questions but want specific answers. Without learning to blacksmith at least as far as heat treat is concerned, do you think you'd understand any of the tricks I use to prevent or control "sabreing" as you put it?

I think the best answer I've ever heard a well known bladesmith make when how long it took him to make a sword was, "5(?) years." don't quote me on the number of years I don't recall specifically. The meaning was he'd spent many years learning the craft before making a sword.

At this point in your expertise what do you care what the "best" steel is? Do you even know how it's going to be used?

There's a LOT to know before YOU get to knowing what to ask and what to do with the answers. I'm not looking to discourage you but you're jumping the gun by a lonnnnggggg shot.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

how about 1005?  It will resist sabering; be totally useless as a blade but as long  as you want to focus on a single aspect it will do fine...

There are some alloys that resist warping during heat treat and are often ones that do well with stock removal and are more of an issue to forge.  IIRC A2 has been used successfully.  Now I don't know how this alloy will meet any other criteria you may have but it is a knife grade steel that resists warping in heat treat.

 

As for what to use to get started: something knife grade that is cheap and easily available.  I suggest to my students that they expect to forge and destroy their weight in blades before they expect to get good at it.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Honestly, in todays world, the short sword would be a more practical/tactical sword, be it a gladius, wasakashi or whatnot, longer blades realy shone for a horseman (think 9' tall infantry) sabers, longswards, katana are long, and take space to weild, in the open, your weapon will either lead to a rapid retreat or a hail of lead, wile in a close, builtup enviroment a more conceilable blade, somthing you could yeald in a closit or bathroom is the ticket, yes a longer weapon has some advantage of reach but from a modern standpoint, somthing 10-12" blade and 4-5" hilt is about max, single or double edged  do not discount the curved blade, as slicing yp your aponent will end a fight with les risk to you than stabing him. Peaple die slow, dint expect the holywood 3 second death with a blade, unless its an axe to the base of the skull. The saber and katana took advantage of a a slicing blade and a peicing point. In side of 21 feet one can take a gunman befor he can raise bis weapon, but be worned, if hou stab him in the heart he is likely to shoot you befor the fact he is dead registers, while a slash to his gun hand will likely disarm him, and you can prosicut the fight. Honestly a knife the lenghth of your forging hammer is a bettor choice, and frankly the lowly hawk, in a weightof 8-16 oz with a 16-24" handle is just as effective at

ending a fight. 

As to steel, and heattreat,

i bow to Steve and the other cutlers, but as to dispating an oponent? Don't look to hollywood, a guy with a 30" blade will draw fire, and it's a bear to wild in a room, or god

forbid a graple and overbare attack, give me a k-bar (boye)  aplegate fairborn (bit stouter than the sykes fairborn) or such. Somthing i cam wieildin a tight spot.

[Andrew Zimba]

Ah, Newb questions. It's not the questions that mark you as a beginner it's the expectations. You lack enough knowledge to ask good questions but want specific answers. Without learning to blacksmith at least as far as heat treat is concerned, do you think you'd understand any of the tricks I use to prevent or control "sabreing" as you put it?

There's a LOT to know before YOU get to knowing what to ask and what to do with the answers. I'm not looking to discourage you but you're jumping the gun by a lonnnnggggg shot.

At this point in your expertise what do you care what the "best" steel is? Do you even know how it's going to be used?

​Yes, Frosty, newb questions.    I actually realize I am doing this.  I believe it is a part of gaining knowledge.  I would bet that a lot of folks who are quite good now were in a similar state when they first got going...

I see you quoted me out of context.  I didn't ask what the "best" steel is.  That would be similar to a little kid asking what the best martial art is or what the best car is.  

I asked a much more specific question - "what would be the best steel to start getting comfortable with given that I know I'm looking to eventually move into the type of blades I've mentioned above?" 

A really good answer would be something like "Well, given that you are not really interested in forging but only stock removal, and given that you are looking to work small blades in order to gain the knowledge needed to begin working progressively longer blades, you could {insert answer here}, because {supporting statements here}."  

All I got from your post was 'shut up and read more' and  'just start working metal' with no real direction on either, which really is no kinda answer at all.

 

Honestly, in todays world, the short sword would be a more practical/tactical sword, be it a gladius, wasakashi or whatnot, longer blades realy shone for a horseman (think 9' tall infantry) sabers, longswards, katana are long, and take space to weild, in the open, your weapon will either lead to a rapid retreat or a hail of lead, wile in a close, builtup enviroment a more conceilable blade, somthing you could yeald in a closit or bathroom is the ticket, yes a longer weapon has some advantage of reach but from a modern standpoint, somthing 10-12" blade and 4-5" hilt is about max, single or double edged  do not discount the curved blade, as slicing yp your aponent will end a fight with les risk to you than stabing him. Peaple die slow, dint expect the holywood 3 second death with a blade, unless its an axe to the base of the skull. The saber and katana took advantage of a a slicing blade and a peicing point. In side of 21 feet one can take a gunman befor he can raise bis weapon, but be worned, if hou stab him in the heart he is likely to shoot you befor the fact he is dead registers, while a slash to his gun hand will likely disarm him, and you can prosicut the fight. Honestly a knife the lenghth of your forging hammer is a bettor choice, and frankly the lowly hawk, in a weightof 8-16 oz with a 16-24" handle is just as effective at

ending a fight. 

As to steel, and heattreat,

i bow to Steve and the other cutlers, but as to dispating an oponent? Don't look to hollywood, a guy with a 30" blade will draw fire, and it's a bear to wild in a room, or god

forbid a graple and overbare attack, give me a k-bar (boye)  aplegate fairborn (bit stouter than the sykes fairborn) or such. Somthing i cam wieildin a tight spot.

​Hi Charles!  I've been involved in the southeast Asian martial arts for some time now, and am quite comfortable with small blades.  My mention of longer straight blades is not because it's what I think I want, it's because that's what I know I like.  I have swung a 30" stick in one hand while manipulating a 5" blade in my off hand since the early 90's, and when moving with other people's various long blades (there is a tremendous variation of blade styles in the SE Asian martial arts) I find that I really like a similar length (28-30") and shape (mostly straight) to the sticks I'm used to.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Andrew Zimba

[Charles R. Stevens]

"Tachtical" brings baggage, as in real life practicalcombat use as aposed to martial arts practice, i missunderstood. 

[ThomasPowers]

Before you get "set" on stock removal; be sure to look at some of Stormcrow's work he's posted here, brush swords, fighters, etc.

[Andrew Zimba]

"Tachtical" brings baggage, as in real life practicalcombat use as aposed to martial arts practice, i missunderstood. 

​No, I think you understood correctly.  I've bandsawed many a practice blade from aluminum stock.  I'm now looking to build what those training blades represent. 

[Andrew Zimba]

Before you get "set" on stock removal; be sure to look at some of Stormcrow's work he's posted here, brush swords, fighters, etc.

​Stormcrow, huh?  OK, I will check him out.  Off to the search engine!  Thanks!

[Charles R. Stevens]

Then you didn't understand me, 30" blades arne very "tactical" 

as to pactice steel for learning to heat treat small blades to gain experiance to aply to long plades? Ask what is the most prone to warp under heat treat, then when you can manage to consistantly come iut with strait blades, long blades with a more forgiving steel will be easy 

[Frosty]

NO, I didn't quote you out of context, I just boiled your excess verbage to it's actual meaning. Just adding words doesn't necessarily increase meaning.

I'm afraid if all you got from my reply was "shut up and read more," Your reading comprehension is pretty poor. If you think the steel is going to word it's answers to suit what you want to hear you may not be suited to metal working. The only thing steel responds to is substance. Appearance means nothing to it, it's nothing but highly refined dirt and cares just as much. Masamune's crowning masterpiece blade was just as happy as black sand in the river and will be just as happy as rust returned to dust.

If you don't understand something a person tells you, explaining to them how they should've worded the reply correctly is only going to get you . . . We get to many replies like yours to show a lot of patience.

I'll not bother you again.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Charles R. Stevens]

That may have came off as a bit harsh, let me explane, "tactical" has a certain meaning to me when aplied to tools and weapons. As a marketing ploy many things that are of no use, or are a liability in a combat or selfdefence situation have been called "tactical" 

when aplied to tools, lets explore a bit, The "tactical" tomahawk as we see it now, is a multyperpose tool, and tho it can be presed into sevis as a weapon it is primaraly a breaching/camp tool, doors, windows, soft brick, cement block and adobe are its primary "meat" digging cat holes, and placing mines, bashing up wood for fires etc, just look at the desigh, heavy steel handle, back spike like a firemans axe and a heavy blade. A "batle axe" has a light head as choping flesh is relitivly easy.

Many of the tactical knives are of a simular vein, not fighting knives but sturdy camp knives for bush/woodscraft and survival. 

A sword is a weapon, "bush swords" are a tool, for hacking brush and clearing lines of fire. But the sword you refer to is a weapon. So "tacticaly" it has some major flaws in the modern world, it is only good for slicing and stabing peaple, but in any senerio where a blade trumps a gun it has liabilities, unless its a sword cane it is not concealable, and outside of a few situations its not practical for anything. This is not to say that desplays of skill with real, properly desighned and manufactured weapons dosn't have its vertue, but as a tactical weapon its of little value, and even less as a tactical tool.

ok sermon over, lol I will lend my suport to making beutiful, well balanced tools to deminstrate your skills as a martial artist, and (by then) bladesmith. But as a practical weapon? Nooe, look to the filipinoes, efective, deadly knife fighters. They conceal their weapons and attack from stealth! Very "tactical" in the military use of the word

[Andrew Zimba]

I'm with you Charles.  I believe your point of view is precisely why many (not all, but a fair number) of Filipino and Indonesian martial arts teach the short blade and/or the baton first, because those are the weapons most likely to be available.  Long and short comes later, first with stick, then with the long blade last.  There could be other reasons for this besides sheer availability, but it does fit nicely in that paradigm.  

I'm also with you in that the weapon I'd be most likely to reach for in a close-range defense scenario would be the 4 in folder in my front pocket.  Firstly because it's always there.  Secondly because close-in, I'd prefer the flexibility of the blade over my CCW.  Thirdly, I can readily demonstrate to a jury the difference between defensive blade wounds and attempted murder blade wounds.

In a more-than-arm's-length away situation, the CCW would be preferable over a 30" sword in most, if not all, present day settings.  

If one were to ever defend one's self or family with a sword, it most likely would be in a situation where modern society was no longer functioning.  

That doesn't mean one is not worth having, IMO, especially if all the other bases are already covered.

Plus, I want one...

Edited May 19, 2015 by Andrew Zimba

[Andrew Zimba]

NO, I didn't quote you out of context, I just boiled your excess verbage to it's actual meaning. Just adding words doesn't necessarily increase meaning.

​Really?  Check it:

What's the best current production motorcycle for a Paris to Dakar rally given a max support crew of 3 in a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van?

vs.

What's the best motorcycle ever, Daddy?

If you see the difference in those two questions as merely "excess verbage", stick to bangin metal and step away from the internet, dude.

[Frosty]

​Really?  Check it:

What's the best current production motorcycle for a Paris to Dakar rally given a max support crew of 3 in a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van?

vs.

What's the best motorcycle ever, Daddy?

If you see the difference in those two questions as merely "excess verbage", stick to bangin metal and step away from the internet, dude.

​Your entire reply is excess, essentially meaningless verbage. A crude attempt to appear somehow . . . significant without a ghost of substance. You don't need to make my points for me, I can do a much better job without help.

 

[Steve Sells]

I'm with you Charles.  I believe your point of view is precisely why many (not all, but a fair number) of Filipino and Indonesian martial arts teach the short blade and/or the baton first, because those are the weapons most likely to be available.  Long and short comes later, first with stick, then with the long blade last.  There could be other reasons for this besides sheer availability, but it does fit nicely in that paradigm.  

I'm also with you in that the weapon I'd be most likely to reach for in a close-range defense scenario would be the 4 in folder in my front pocket.  Firstly because it's always there.  Secondly because close-in, I'd prefer the flexibility of the blade over my CCW.  Thirdly, I can readily demonstrate to a jury the difference between defensive blade wounds and attempted murder blade wounds.

In a more-than-arm's-length away situation, the CCW would be preferable over a 30" sword in most, if not all, present day settings.  

If one were to ever defend one's self or family with a sword, it most likely would be in a situation where modern society was no longer functioning.  

That doesn't mean one is not worth having, IMO, especially if all the other bases are already covered.

Plus, I want one...

A stick is used to hit, a knife can only cut, and a gun shoots, there is nothing else the jury will care about if you cut a person with a 4 inch blade you are carrying, it is premeditated by the fact is it being with you, and it also appears that you are not qualified to educate anyone as to why short blades are taught before a sword either. 

So far you opened you mouth without reading much of anything, then argue when experienced people gave you answers, and I can tell you still have not even read the pinned thread at top of this section, that would have warned you of the result of your post, you appear to be a troll, and so to save us all more of your self inflated ego ranting, I am moderating your account, this has gone on far enough.

FYI: besides making swords and such, I also hold a Godan in Jujitsu, and as such have taught classes on the use of blades weapons in a real world with lawyers and juries.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Steve Sells

[Charles R. Stevens]

Oh now I love that emoticon!!

but what to do with a good rant?! So disapointing....

Edited May 20, 2015 by Charles R. Stevens

[basher]

In answer to the original question:- The easiest way to prevent sabering in a straight sword id to harden and temper it before you grind the bevel into it. I do this a lot on my pattern welded Viking swords that are double edged straight blades.

You may still get a little sabering as material removal will change the tensions in the blade, however leaving the blade a few mm wider than you want it will allow you to grind the blade true after you have ground the bevels in.

 

The other way to try and minimalise warpage would be martempering, however an uneven section will always want to warp in the heat up and cool down associated with any heat treating.

 Material wise I would aim for a deep hardening spring steel In the UK I would recommend EN45 , and in the USA I guess 5160.

 

 

[Malice9610]

Pardon my newbish, I did search the term, but came up with only 5 total results on the site, only one of which didnt happen to be in this thread. 

What is " Sabering " 

Is it the curve a blade takes after heat treat, as ive read that blades such as katana's curve during the hardening process due to the difference in thickness between edge and spine, and Bashers reply directly above mine says that he does bevels after he completes the heat treating process on his straight bladed items. 

Am I right, or did I totally get things messed up? 

[ThomasPowers]

During heat treat not after.   Basher; that's *cheating*! (and for a stock removal question a quite good answer...)

[Steve Sells]

Part of the sabering of the katana is due to its differential hardening, and the fact of expansion/contraction making spacial differences between steel phases of austenite and martensite forcing the curve.

[ThomasPowers]

In the katana it's considered a feature and not a flaw!