Newbie, a little background,couple questions.

[redd1981]

 

 Hey guys my name is andrew and I have been doing stock removal knives for a few years and knew from the beginning I would be getting into forging at some point....IM READY.

 

I came here from blade forums and can tell this is a different type of atmosphere,more encouragement and less nit-picking. But I am used to the nitpicking so that wont bother me if it happens here,as I know it is in good faith and have learned that listening to the pros the first time will save time and frustration.

So anyway I have taken a piece of track and formed it the best I could, (I KNOW) and am building a "brake drum forge" (I KNOW)

Ok on to questions..

My buddy works at a tire place and brought me 3 different shaped drums (Im not trying to start an argument about mechanical terminology) and I chose the shallowest one but after doing a little reading it seems like I chose the wrong one. its only about 2 in deep and from what I have read while lurking this is not ideal once you you get the basics down and try an attempt at forge welding. Would I be better using the deeper dish or using the more shallow one and building a circle with fire brick to create to create fuel depth?

 

Thank you for any and all replies.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Andrew glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the IFI gang live within visiting distance.

The depth fire you need will depend on the fuel you're burning. Charcoal wants a deeper fire, as I recall in the 5-6" range while coal/coke wants 4-5". Deeper is better than too shallow and I'm not a solid fuel guy so when someone posts different depths go with them. With some experience you'll learn what the fire should look like both by itself and how the steel is behaving.

Personally I like a duck's nest rather than a fire pot so I can change the size and shape as needed. In general I believe the 2" deep rotor is going to be too shallow without building it up with fire brick. Semi drums are generally WAY too deep and require filling with clay to be practical for general smithing. A standard pickup truck rear brake drum seems pretty much a good happy medium size and depth wise. That is however my opinion and I'm primarily a gas forge guy but over the years I've developed that opinion based on what others have said.

IFI has a pretty extensive solid fuel forge section and much larger bladesmithing section. You're going to need a comfy chair, something to eat and drink just to skim. That's no foolin.

Frosty The Lucky.

[turbo7]

start bigger, fill it full if dirt/ clay and dig it out fill it in as you learn

[redd1981]

Thanks for the reply Frosty..I plan on using lump charcoal until I can grab some coal and then learning from there. I am in st. louis  MO and there is a coal pick up in moscow mills once I ready.

 I have a propane paint can forge with an extention to HT my 1084 blades and it works great. I am looking to do ALOT of  simple practice things with rebar and scrap before I even try to do anything knife related. but the the propane forge is for HT only.

I am try to get ahold of him tonight to pick it up and will try to post some pics of the difference.

 

Ok well not going to happen tonight,but would still like more opinions and FACTS. Thanks for the advice turbo7

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

I much prefer side blast forges, so a oil drain pan, wash tub, packing crate or oil drum worlds better for me. Actually cheaper and easier to build as well. 

to get a larger fire than about 6" you need multiple tweers, or a pipe with holes drilled in the side, I belive the reason one usualy needs a dealer charcoal fire is the fact that coal forges provide to much air, actually cooling the fuel, so if you dump a bunch of cold air under charcoal it needs to be a couple of inches dealer to allow the weight of the fuel on top to hold down the fuel in th bottom and to allow the fuel on top to make heat that the lower fuel can't. A 1/2 tweer stuck in the side of a 4" bow,, just an inch of the bottom, with 3" of fuel on top will burn up a horse shoe. Just two of the charcoal forges I have been playing with. The simple truth is that swords are forged 6" at a time.

look at the "Tim Lively wash tub forge" " Japanese sword forge

"also look at the Viking forges as well as the African termite mound forges. As well the "55 side blast forge" 

dont bash the rail, if you use it right it has many forging surfaces 

 

 

 

[the iron dwarf]

Charles I easily get a 12 inch diameter fire with a bottom blast and 5 inches fuel depth and single tue just under 0.5 inch.

I burn coke and recently had to anneal a huge bit of tool steel so it could be machined, it was over 4.5 inches in diameter and 32 inches long, got about 12" of it bright red and here is a picture taken a while after the fire was turned off.

it taken a few minutes to get hot like that and all night to cool down

 

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2015 by the iron dwarf
too many pix

[Charles R. Stevens]

Sorry Id, I was referring to charcoal. The bigger fire ball on coke (and as coke is the working byproduct of coal) is certainly nice for some work. My Proforge ( gasser) heats 2" by 10" long. Usualy more heat zone than I need. an other larger shop style side blast is on my list. 

[the iron dwarf]

no problem Charles, im only a beginner and there are a lot more knowledgeable people here than me.

this is just from my experience with forges I make.

have used charcoal in the past but for this job it would have burnt to fast and would have been difficult to add more fuel under the work, handling that piece was not easy when it was hot

[ThomasPowers]

Ok take the drum you have and slip in a "fence" made from unplated/painted/galvanized/etc sheet metal.  Cut it a bit short so the ends don't meet and the gap allows you to slid metal in through it. Across from the gap and above the rim of the brake drum cut a mousehole so you can stick extra long pieces through and out the other side

Now you can fill the drum with fuel even up to the top of the fence and little will fall out of the gap as you use it. I once made one this way and it ended up being my favorite billet welder for several years.

Meanwhile a student of mine did one from a semi drum, couldn't get the steel down to the hot spot, so filled with creek clay until it got close enough to use but ended up abandoning it as it was too heavy to move around.

[redd1981]

 

 Thanks again everyone for the advice,it is very encouraging. I got a deeper rotor which also has a bigger lip to set into the table. Cant wait to get the last few things I need and get to making a mockery out of my first few well intended project ideas.

 Does anyone know what is wrong with the BAM website? Or can anyone contact someone and let them know the site is down? I would like to join and pick up some coal but it has been down for days.

BTW WOW is 2 inch pipe and fittings EXPENSIVE!

 

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I am always running across pipe fittings cheap. Check with a plumber in your area, they may have some old ones they would be willing to part with for less than new.

[LastRonin]

Fire sprinkler companies use the heck out of 2" pipe and quite often pull out and replace pieces that aren't suitable for pressure but will stand up just fine to the use as solid fuel forge plumbing.

[ThomasPowers]

got mine at the ReStore for about US$1 a piece---unused.

[Frosty]

I used salvaged exhaust pipe but I have a little mig welder. Exhaust pipe can be cut leaving tabs to pop rivet or screw together. Asking a plumber, etc. if you can buy some of the old plumbing they've torn out usually ends up with you having to think of what to do with buckets full.

It's happened to me, just yesterday in fact. I missed a turn and had to go around the block to get back and saw a yard sale sign so off I went, sidetracked AGAIN. Got to talking to the guy who was liquidating everydarned thing to go buy and live on a sailboat. Well, as usual I was more interested in things like hammers, chisels, various grades of steel thingies and chatting on the subject. The next thing I know he's giving me a jet engine turbine blade and a bucket with a good 35+lbs. of loose ball bearings. Jet engine mechanics keep weird things. I have NO idea what to do with a turbine blade, maybe sharpen it for a cleaver?

I know that's a pretty off topic little tale but the point is talking to people pays. Be friendly, tell folk what you're interested in or looking for. Be interested in what they have to say (Even if you have to pretend) and you just NEVER know what they have under that old roll of carpet or where ever. It's sort of a random example of the TPAAAT method.

Frosty The Lucky.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Frosty

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

A turbine blade is just a cool thing to have around. How big of one did you get, picture?

I can think of some neat projects that you can do with a mess of ball bearing balls.

Edited April 6, 2015 by BIGGUNDOCTOR

[ThomasPowers]

doesn't everyone have a jet engine turbine blade tucked around the place somewhere?

[LastRonin]

I don't have Jet engine turbine blade, but I do have a blade out of an electric power plant steam turbine.

[GottMitUns]

Well since this thread is pretty well hijacked already,,

I saw 2 jet engine turbine blades for sale just Friday! 

I did learn a trick when looking for top tools and butchers in antique shops and junk shows, don't ask for blacksmithing tools, ask if they have any funny looking hammers! worked for me twice last weekend in places that were sure they had no blacksmithing tools.

 

Russell

[SmoothBore]

A bit of clarification .....

Any "Brake Drum" Forge design, ... is essentially a "Rivet" Forge, ... and therefore, never intended for use on larger, thicker material.

Of course you can use bricks, or other means, of creating and containing a deeper fire.

( My "portable" Forge is a "Rivet" type, ... and I occasionally use a 4" long piece of 8" diameter iron pipe, to "extend" the depth of the fire. )

But this is rarely necessary.

If you find you consistently need to employ this method, ... you'd probably be happier with a "Ducks Nest" type Fire Pot, ... 5" or 6" deep.

I find it's just less hassle, ... working with a "Ducks Nest", set down flush into a cast iron or steel table, with a 3" high "lip" around the edge.

You already spend enough time fussing with a Coal fire, ... anything that makes that simpler, ... is better.

 

I'm not much of a "Knife Guy", ... and have always been pleased with the Bill Hooks, Machetes, and "Machete-Like Objects"  I've made from old Lawnmower Blades.

While the Forge was useful in making those Blades, ... it wasn't "essential".

 

So, ... I'll assume you want a Forge, in order to make "Pattern Welded" Blades.

The important thing, I think most often gets "missed" when talking about Forge Fires for Pattern Welding, ... is "soak" time.

( The time a Billet spends in the Fire, achieving consistent temperature, throughout. )

A deep, fairly "slow" Fire, will give you the best "window" in which to achieve that consistent soak.

That's probably why the serious "Blade" Guys, ... end up using a Gas Forge. 

 

 

.

 

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

For billets I run the fire up to very hot with the billet NOT in it. Then turn off the air and stick the billet in to soak in a definitely reducing fire.  When it's up to fluxing temp I wire brush, flux and put back in and start bringing the fire up *slowly*.

[redd1981]

Smooth bore. I actually never intend to make pattern welded billets. I found a pretty new HC spike last summer in a customers yard that the water dept. had left,almost ran over it with the mower (ya that would have meant buying a brand new set of blades). Picked it up and thought to myself well DARN!! now I have to make another forge and turn this into a knife.

My plan is to screw up all kinds of trinkets and fire pokers and things like that (not self defeating just realistic) as gifts (some for people,some for the scrap bucket) to get my hammer strength and skill up to par before I try to turn the spike into a knife I can put on one of the bookshelves. Im no stranger to a hammer but I have never actually forged anything and Iv been alive long enough to understand that patience and practice makes perfect.

Im not saying I will never attempt it but Its just not my intention. I do have a propane forge but I HAVE to have it to HT my knives. It is kind of delicate so I dont want to be banging around rebar,RR spikes,horseshoes etc in it.

BTW Thanks for the advice about the soak I will definitely have to read into that and do my homework if I ever try it.

[Frosty]

Just be careful NOT to bang around the inside of your forge, it'll be fine. The thing I've found that beats up my forge is letting other guys use it. Fortunately its pretty easy to reline. Still. <sigh> Of course once they have a forge of their own they're not so rough.

Frosty The Lucky.