falsevacuum Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I bought my first anvil, one of those 55 lb cast iron anvils (or ASO, as you wish). It was relatively cheap for an anvil ($87 with shipping), and I couldn't find any anvils nearby that were less than $600.I've heard about people welding steel plates onto cast iron anvils, so I bought a 1/2" plate of A-36 steel to weld onto the anvil. However, I've been reading that it's pretty difficult to weld onto cast iron, and including heating it to 500F. Sounds like more trouble than it's worth.The other option I thought of is to build another, taller stand, and use the steel plate as an anvil, and use my cast iron one for its horn. I could even get a hardy hole machined into my steel plate for free. I'd have to buy the lumber and screws, which would add some cost, though. Which option should I go with? Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 A big chunk of scrap steel is better, less expensive, and less hassle than messing with an ASO. Return it if you still can, and use the money to get a big chunk of scrap. Then get forging.If you have never done any cast iron welding, stop right now. I have done my fair share , and it can be a real pain if you don't have the right gear, and rod. If you can do basic welding you can weld up sections of a forklift fork into a nice anvil.Search for homemade anvils on here. to see what others have come up with. Some at simple, some are very elaborate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Return it if you can and find a heavy piece of steel to forge on you don't really need more. However if you can't get them to take it back consider this. You'll need a place you can build a substantial fire, one large enough to bring that ASO to near orange heat. Then cut and grind the plate till it matches the anvil then shine up the face and the steel plate. Lay sticks of fluxed silver solder across the anvil about 3/4" apart, and wire the plate down tight. If you can't get fluxed silver solder buy the correct flux.Now turn the anvil plate down and balance it on a couple legs to keep it say 4-6" off the bottom of the fire. Now build a fire and gradually bring the anvil's temp up till a couple pieces of silver solder laid in the center of the base, farthest from the fire melt. Let the thing cool gradually.You'll be able to tell if the solder flowed because the weight of the anvil will have driven what excess there is from the joint.You now have an ASO with a steel face plate. Unfortunately it's an A-36 faceplate and not hardenable better than cast iron but still . . .Yes silver solder is strong enough to make this work, we used it to bond tungsten carbides to the teeth on our earth drill bits and if a 453 Detroit Diesel can't knock the carbides off the teeth while it rips them bodily out of the bit you most certainly aren't going to be able to delaminate a steel plate with a hand hammer.Just a thought from your weird Uncle, Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Uncle Frosty, can I have a poney?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 (edited) Yes.Frosty The Lucky. Edited March 31, 2015 by Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 my local scrap yard has been selling 75# anvils for $15; they look a lot like the anvil that the smith uses for forging katanas in National Geographics "Living treasures of Japan" (it's on Youtube) but if he can suffer with it I'm sure you could too. My last class I taught I pretty much did it without using the horn or hardy to show the students that while they are nice, they are not mandatory. (Thought I am forging my own T stake anvil to go with my medieval cube anvil.)I would stop using the ASO as an anvil and relegate it to a hardy holder and bending fixture and use a large chunk of forklift tine as the actual anvil if you can't source some dozer scrap. There is a reason we call them ASOs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falsevacuum Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 Frosty: Those are fantastic instructions! Thank you! I'm not sure if I can return it -- I'll try.Everyone: The steel I have readily available is a 1/2" x 4" x 2' bar that I can cut and weld to make an 8" x 8" plate with some leftover. I also picked up a piece of steel from the scrapyard that's about 1' x 1' and maybe 1/16"-1/8" thick. it's pretty sturdy -- no obvious damage. I didn't see any forklift scrap when I was there, though I'll go back in a few weeks and take another look. Which piece should I use? Or should I use Frosty's instructions to solder it on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Just so you know I've never tried soldering a steel face to a cast anvil. You'll be taking your own chances if you wish to give it a try. Be prepared for a good fire to take several hours to bring it to silver solder sweating temperature and longer to cool.Think about this, I've been thinking about this for probably 35+ years. I have a brand spanking new ASO sitting out there that was abandoned with me 15-16 years ago. I have more than enough 1" Vascowear Grader edge just begging to be cut, fitted and matched. Have I built a fire on a clear part of this 15 acres we live on? Nope, they're still just sitting there and I have about 12 acres of forest I can harvest wood from for the fire.I had the idea years before I found an anvil, heck had an aso then too, I abandoned it way back. It's an all day/night job. Fine if you're camping anyway but it's a PITA to control the heat, get it where you need it and cooling it would be another PITA. What's so hard about spending a day watching a fire? It'll be more than hot enough to start a fire for probably 12+ hrs after the solder flows and you can't just walk away and leave it. Bury it in dirt? Not a bad idea but now you'd have to heat treat the face and critical is hotter than the solder's melting temp though if you're careful you can find solder that has a higher melting temp, think a brazing rod but now you're talking about getting it all in the range of 1600-1660f. (From a Uniweld alloy temperature chart)I suppose if you used a low temp silver solder, say 450f or under liquidus you wouldn't have to worry about hardening but the temper would be run probably into the purple. Not bad I guess. I have Vascowear grader edge to play with and it doesn't much care if I get it 1600f. so long as I don't chill it in a creek it'll be too hard for mere mortal man to dent with a hammer. I'm still not going to set up a camp and stay awake all night to make sure a gust of wind doesn't blow a leafy branch or someone's escaped garbage can lid on it and start a forest fire.Yves just posted a splendid pictorial piece that lays out what a real plan is like. Silver soldering or brazing a face on a cast iron anvil is an intriguing idea but when I started working out a plan realized it's a major job to do safely. I suppose I could take it to one of the heat treat shops in Anchorage but that'd cost a BUNCH.Start laying out all the things you'll need and need to do to try pulling this off, just diving in is a recipe for failure.Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Yes.Frosty The Lucky.Reminds me of the time Sweeny wanted a badge. Wonder where Sweeny got off to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falsevacuum Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 That sounds like a hell of a time. So, dumb question, but could I just epoxy on the plate instead of going through all that trouble? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) Frosty, What about using one of the larger oval ceramic kilns? Or, if any large enough kiln is available. Have it run when they do a load of ceramics, and have some extra room. I am also thinking that this would be a great job for an induction unit. Butter the top of the anvil with the silver solder, then use the induction unit to heat the top as it sits on the ASO. Edited April 1, 2015 by BIGGUNDOCTOR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I don't know about an adhesive but I don't think a hard brittle one will work. You may not know it but a 2-3lb hammer will flex 1/2" steel like a drum head so anything like regular epoxy glue would shatter. I'll bet there are adhesives out there that'll do it but they might cost more than a new Nimba. That might just work Guns. I've never tried getting a solder or braze join that way. Tin the anvil, lay the face on it and induction heat the face plate? One side hot the other cold? I think the thermal expansion and contraction of the face plate would tear it loose but I don't know.Doing it in a kiln would make it a world easier, safer and more likely to succeed. You could do a controlled hardening and tempering heats too. All a person needs is a kiln large enough and enough curiosity to kill a clowder of cats.Something that's kept the whole idea in mind is how a successfully soldered face plate on a cast iron body would compare to a Fisher noise wise. They should be a self damping combination.Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Most commercial brazing and soldering is done in ovens of some type, so in theory there is no reason it would not work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 keep in mind that the high temp silver solders are pretty pricey. I can see this entire experiment as costing more than buying a real anvil in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Due to the somewhat experimental nature of this venture I would suggest 3 things....1. Spelter brazing instead of silver solder. If it could be done in a kiln it would certainly up the odds of success.2. Instead of just a fire why not a ground forge to speed the process up dramatically. 3. Instead of wasting all this time and effort to secure a mild steel top why not use at least a piece of truck leaf spring.Only other input is that the surfaces to be joined must be remarkably clean for this to work.Epoxy would last about ten minutes in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falsevacuum Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) Hmmm... this is all seeming pretty expensive. I looked up the price of silver solder on Amazon, and it's about $100/lb. Even if that's overpriced, it'd still be on the order of magnitude of the ASO.Arftist: My forge is not a ground forge. I built it about 35" high, and it's not super sturdy at that (first welding project, what can I say). I'm not sure it could hold up my anvil without external support. What do you mean about a truck leaf spring? How would I use it? I could go to the scrap yard and see if they have any... I noticed they had some automotive scrap last time I went.Maybe not your run-of-the-mill epoxy, but would a high end metal adhesive like "JB Weld" hold together decently enough to get me started? Moreover, could it do any harm? This would at least allow me to get started, even if it'll break in a few hours of moderate use. Maybe after I get a chance to try blacksmithing I'll be more inclined to do more experimental things like that. Edited April 1, 2015 by falsevacuum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Hmmm... this is all seeming pretty expensive. I looked up the price of silver solder on Amazon, and it's about $100/lb. Even if that's overpriced, it'd still be on the order of magnitude of the ASO.Arftist: My forge is not a ground forge. I built it about 35" high, and it's not super sturdy at that (first welding project, what can I say). I'm not sure it could hold up my anvil without external support. What do you mean about a truck leaf spring? How would I use it? I could go to the scrap yard and see if they have any... I noticed they had some automotive scrap last time I went.Maybe not your run-of-the-mill epoxy, but would a high end metal adhesive like "JB Weld" hold together decently enough to get me started? Moreover, could it do any harm? This would at least allow me to get started, even if it'll break in a few hours of moderate use. Maybe after I get a chance to try blacksmithing I'll be more inclined to do more experimental things like that.If your forge will not support 55 lbs it is likely too weak to be safe, beef it up a little. Knowing you have a forge makes the project more doable; you could forge braze it. Read up on spelter brazing.What I meant by truck leaf spring is using s piece of leaf spring for a new top instead of mild steel. No matter what kind of epoxy you use it will last 10 minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) If you have access to a scrapyard; just find a chunk of large old steel scrap and buy it and use it for an anvil. I've used forklift tines, broken knuckles off railroad car couplers, large chunks of random steel---my local yard has been selling 75# rectangular solid chunks for US$15 and has a 6" thick 2' diameter round I'd love to have but can't justify the 20 cents a pound for 770 pounds.Ever hear the phrase "throwing good money after bad"? Edited April 1, 2015 by ThomasPowers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdaleh Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Squeek Squeek Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falsevacuum Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share Posted April 2, 2015 Alright, so I think what I'm going to do is keep the ASO for the horn, hardy hole, and the fact that I like the stand. So more as a novelty than a doorstop. I'll use the 1/2" A-36 steel I have to make another, more sturdy anvil. I think I'm going to put that anvil on some kind of adjustable height stand I'll build. Fixing the anvil sounds like more of a pain in the ass than it's worth, and, as you say Thomas, "throwing good money after bad".Should I bother to get a hardy hole for my 1/2 steel plate? I can probably do it for free, minus the opportunity cost of missing work time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Alright, so I think what I'm going to do is keep the ASO for the horn, hardy hole, and the fact that I like the stand. So more as a novelty than a doorstop. I'll use the 1/2" A-36 steel I have to make another, more sturdy anvil. I think I'm going to put that anvil on some kind of adjustable height stand I'll build. Fixing the anvil sounds like more of a pain in the ass than it's worth, and, as you say Thomas, "throwing good money after bad".Should I bother to get a hardy hole for my 1/2 steel plate? I can probably do it for free, minus the opportunity cost of missing work time.Do you have a welder? If so you could always crank up the amps and burn out a hardy hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 In virtually any configuration 1/2" of mild steel will make a poor anvil. Keep it around, it's useful stuff, just not for an anvil. Keep your eyes open for an anvil weight piece of steel. Getting in a hurry to build an anvil when you don't know nor understand what makes a good anvil is likely to turn into a "valuable learning experience". We learn from our mistakes yes?Just be patient, the kit will come, nothing good happens over night.Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I have been doon this for about 3 years and still haven't got a real anvil. Right now it's a piece of rail track on end standing on a large 6"x6". It's not ideal but it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I agree with Frosty. Ditch the idea of the 1/2" plate for an anvil surface. Check with the scrap yards, and rental companies for a bad forklift tine. They are great for anvils, already heat treated, inexpensive, have several thicknesses to work with, and have plenty of weight if cut and welded up into a more block shape. Personally the ASO would be returned if it was mine. There are so many other better options out there for the same, or less money than what it cost.As for a hardy hole. Hardies have different sized shanks, so a universal way to go is to just use a good sturdy vise to hold them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 (edited) Folks, they quit making anvils with cast iron or wrought iron bodies with tool steel faces a looooooong time ago, because steel got cheap. And labor got expensive. And those old anvils broke. A lot, as anybody who looks for one on-line can attest, what with the number of ruins being offered as "in good condition".A solid block of homogenous steel from a scrapyard is so much better than almost anything available two hundred years ago, that our ancestors would have thought that they won the lottery. The best goods had to be imported by ship, then carted overland. A several hundred pound, solid steel, heat treated anvil from a modern vendor, shopped for, and paid for on-line, then delivered overnight to their door would have been unbelievable. And we whine when we have to pay scrap price and drive in air conditioned comfort to the next county.Don't overthink this: anvils can be anything that will get you by until a better option comes along. Edited April 2, 2015 by John McPherson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.