Damion78 Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I'm currently building my first guillotine tool and was wondering if anyone uses punches in theirs. I do all my work alone and think being able to hold the work and hammer on the punching die would make things easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Are you talking about a top and bottom guillotine tool along the lines of a "smithing magician", or just a punch coming from the top? If you're talking about a top and bottom punching setup then 3 possible problems spring to mind: The punches not lining up exactly/you holding the metal slightly off kilter so the punching happens at a funky angle. (Most likely with round bar). Getting your work out of the punches and keep the punches cool to avoid deforming. Not driving the punches in too far so that they end up deforming eachother in the middle. If you're just talking about punching from the top and want a way to hold your work whilst also holdind your punch + hammer, making a "hold down" tool is the simplest option. Lots of design variations, the most basic of which will take approx 5 mins to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damion78 Posted November 9, 2014 Author Share Posted November 9, 2014 I was thinking about just punching from the top. I have a nice chain hold down that works well but was just thinking the guillotine would/could work nice also with the right setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Give it a bash and see, I guess it depends on what size stock you're using and what it is you're making. My gut instinct is that at some point it's fairly likely your punch will get stuck in the hot metal, then you might have to get the punch out of the guillotine tool before you're able to get the punch out of the hot metal and all that time the heat from your hot metal is affecting your punch temper. Also, if you generally want to keep your punch cool by quenching it then it's generally more hassle to get it in/out of the guillotine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 If you want to try this, you might find a spring loaded punch system will solve some of the issues like pulling the punch back out. Lots of guys punch using screw presses or arbor presses. One hand on the stock, one hand on the press handle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Also look into H13 or S7 for punches. 4060 works good for hand punches as we can cool it evey wack or two, if you use a high hot hardness steel then heat is less of an isue. If you have, say 1" square tooling in a 1+ a hair guid with apropriate bottom tooling ("V" 1/2 round etc you will face fare less hastle. This dose limit you to the size of stock unless you use a desighn with a larger throught. Bigger than 1" (tool) and you need a sledge, and at this point use a striker, press or powerhammer. To much mass in the struck tool vs the hammer realy eats up effency Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyO Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I tried something similar a couple of years ago, only I was going for a slitting chisel, not a punch. Keeping things aligned was a problem, but you may be more skilled at tool making and get closer tolerances than I did. A lesson I've learned over the past few years of smithing is that if a tool works, it's probably already out there, especially true if it works better than what we already use. Remember, many smiths work alone these days, and most of the tools we use are basically the same as they were 400 years ago. I'd suggest spending time learning how to use the tools you have as opposed to spending time trying to "reinvent the wheel" so to speak. As far as holding the work, most of us hold the work using a hold-down (as already mentioned) or hold the cold end of the stock between the legs. One thing I learned by watching Mark Aspery this weekend was a benefit of having a leather apron (beyond protecting your privates), is that the downward force of the apron on the free end of the stock can help to hold the work steady. I don't have an apron currently, and have noticed that when I hold a piece between my legs, I have to squeeze my thighs together so tight that it puts my legs in an awkward position. I'm going to actively look for an apron now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Billy, you will also find that the apron (or in my case chaps) lends itself to suporting your tongs against your thie for bending the harway off anvil bends and off anvil upsetting As to alignmet of tool building. Its called cheating, lol. If you coat your anvil with a splatter guard (milk of magnisia works, of buy some from the weld shop) and place a peice of heavy wall 1" (or apropriat size for your hardy) in your hardy and build around that. Then cut it out of the throught. This alighns the hardy and the tool guide (it is the hardy shank, bottom tool holder and uper tool guide. Dont forget to file out the flash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damion78 Posted November 9, 2014 Author Share Posted November 9, 2014 Thanx for all the straight forward answers I'll probably try it but not with overly high expectations an apron is on my list of things to acquire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 No such thing as cheating. I have set up a guillotine tool for punching with a die underneath. It was for punching a tear drop shape hole consistently in the same place in some specialized pry bars. It worked OK but not well. I had die springs to pull the punch out a stripper to hold the part down and a machined guillotine tool. The punch and die were wire wire EDM cut out of H13 but were aligned and welded in place not built like a proper dieset. I drove the punch with a 100lb power hammer. I would NOT recommend all this for regular holes in normal work. A treadle hammer or power hammer would be a much better tool to assist you with punching. It does not have to be an inline style hammer or one that the head adjusts up and down. A treadle hammer is an excellent tool for punching and chisel work and can even be used for some LIGHT spring swage work BUT IS NOT A POWER HAMMER!!! Treadle hammers give you slow very controllable heavy or light blows but using the corner of the anvil or the horn as a fuller you can draw out more quickly at the anvil. I sold mine a few years ago because I did not have space for it and I still occasionally miss it even though I have 2 air hammers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 No such thing as cheating. I have set up a guillotine tool for punching with a die underneath. It was for punching a tear drop shape hole consistently in the same place in some specialized pry bars. It worked OK but not well. I had die springs to pull the punch out a stripper to hold the part down and a machined guillotine tool. The punch and die were wire wire EDM cut out of H13 but were aligned and welded in place not built like a proper dieset. I drove the punch with a 100lb power hammer. I would NOT recommend all this for regular holes in normal work. A treadle hammer or power hammer would be a much better tool to assist you with punching. It does not have to be an inline style hammer or one that the head adjusts up and down. A treadle hammer is an excellent tool for punching and chisel work and can even be used for some LIGHT spring swage work BUT IS NOT A POWER HAMMER!!! Treadle hammers give you slow very controllable heavy or light blows but using the corner of the anvil or the horn as a fuller you can draw out more quickly at the anvil. I sold mine a few years ago because I did not have space for it and I still occasionally miss it even though I have 2 air hammers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 I use a guillotine tool to hold my punches some times. It's a swing-arm design and works well if you stay in a limited range. Like you said, having a third hand to hold the punch while you align the work and swing the hammer... very handy if you work alone. The downside is that they are problematic if you are trying to get through-holes in something unless you specifically design around that. If you're always changing chisel sizes, you need to change the base plate so the pass-through isn't too large or too small. If you're using chisels and punches to to rudimentary decorative work, it can be a great aid. Just be sure to do all of one step before switching out the tool. Otherwise you'll be jumping around like a chicken with it's head cut off, and that's never a good thing. Here's a shot of my punch arm set up with a round-nosed punch for making countersinks and divots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyO Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Here's a shot of my punch arm set up with a round-nosed punch for making countersinks and divots. Am I missing something, being obtuse, or both? Looks like a chisel set up to me..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Billy, it's whatever you want it to be. As long as you have a .5" shank on the tool, it will fit in the holding arm and be held rather steady. As it's set up in the picture, it's for making countersinks on some of my hooks. Trying to juggle the round bar and a hammer and a hand-held punch was impossible even with the help of a spring-loaded hold down I made. And since I had just finished making a "godzilla" type of guillotine tool for some fullering needs, I just made an arm to hold a punch and bolted it in place. The arms are removable and somewhat adjustable for height, so it wasn't any problem to make a holder and I just happened to have a handful of .5" roller bearings that needed made into something. When you have an order that requires forty countersunk screw holes, and there's no power hammer in sight, you get motivated to come up with something to help out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damion78 Posted November 10, 2014 Author Share Posted November 10, 2014 I think one of my favorite parts of this craft is the iningenuity and creativity that is involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I think one of my favorite parts of this craft is the iningenuity and creativity that is involved. Seconded. I often prefer making the tool that helps to make the product than making the product itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJS Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Its "Stimulating" I get excited and want to make all this tooling and work on projects... I like to think almost jokingly, that since I am made in the image of my creator, I kinda have that same bent. I want to create things. and he created... and it was very good;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I try to emphasize to students that modifying their environment is their birthright! ("There is only *1* *correct* *way* to do things blacksmithing and that is: ANY WAY THAT WORKS!") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJS Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 being careful to DEFINE "anyway that works" for our endlessly equivocating pluralistic relativistic you have your truth, and I have my truth culture... ANy way that works is, you don't manage to hurt me, you, or any one else, and most importantly, you don't hurt MY TOOLS;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJS Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I told a guy once that I had a 16# straight pein sledge, but that I didn't know anyone who could use it, (By which I meant swing it with the accuracy I deemed necessary to be more useful than harmful...) He thought I said pick it up and swing it, which he proceeded to do, and he thought he proved his view right. But since some of his blows were off when we were gang sledging a billet of Damascus at a hammer-in at my shop, he actually proved my point, he couldn't swing the hammer with the accuracy necessary... Language becomes a funny thing when we are careless in how we say things, or we don't all agree what some of the important words mean, or they get changed in the middle of the discussion... Choose your words as carefully as you would choose any of your other tools. Do you really want to say, "when I nod my head, hit it..."??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 It is a chalange to get a thought from your head (where we use a lot of mental "short hand") out of your mouth, threw their ears into their head. When its the written word it is no better, as there is now more dialects of english, including the compleatly idiotic stuff invented by boston schools that our (american) print midia has adopted) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Boston schools? The biggest problem with a punch guided by a guillotine tool is when it gets stuck (and it will, all punches stick sometimes) is that it will be much harder to free the stuck punch from the work piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 "Ubonics" the idea was to "dummy" up english to improve inercity kids english grades. Didn't work and the district took a different tact (better teaching and higher expectations insted of lower) but the news paper and other publishing industry bought in to it. Just look at the headlines on your local paper. What grade would you have gotten in school? One shure way to tell is to look for "gray" as aposed to grey. My spelling sucks, but i take offence to dumming up our language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Greetings 78, Sometimes it is best to file an idea under ... " IT WAS A GOOD IDEA AT THE TIME " I have several that I have filed... However .... It sometimes leads to another idea... You might try making a simple jig to hold your work on the anvil to make your punching easier ... What comes to mind is a simple angle iron welded to a cut plate.. I use several jigs to hold things on the anvil which make punching and slitting easier.. I have posted this jig before but I will share it again... Have fun and keep an open mind.. Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damion78 Posted November 14, 2014 Author Share Posted November 14, 2014 That is definitely on my list of things to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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