Welding Steel Plate on rail anvil

[Leeknivek]

I have a piece of rail, the small kind on the small side, about 18" long. When I bought it, I was planning on using it vertically because all I've read on them is that they work worlds better that way than horizontally. I tested the rebound both horizontally and vertically and horizontally definitely won out. I had zero rebound on it vertically. 

 

But I'm not against the idea, yet. 

 

I made a stand for my rail. It's 20"x20", 36" tall. I made it so tall so that I could fill it with sand (I have hard-packing clay on hand, is that a comparable alternative?) and bury most of the anvil in it. Here's a picture:

 

Sorry that it's sideways... took it on my phone.

 

So, I picked up a small, round piece of plate. It's maybe 5/8" thick and about 4" in diameter, weighs a couple pounds. It was one of the many things I picked up as small stock for making... whatever. I thought I might be able to use it for the face of a vertical rail anvil, though. I'm not sure if it's hardenable, hopefully it is, but I'll test it with a file tomorrow and see what that does. I have a stick welder and an assortment of 25-year old rod, the only kind that's still sealed (and probably usable) is 7018. I also have a 110v MIG welder, a little portable one. No shielding gas, just flux core wire right now. If that circular piece of plate is hardenable, or even if it isn't, would it make an ok face for a rail anvil? Would my welding setup suffice?

 

[VaughnT]

If the plate can't be hardened, it will be a worse surface than the track.  I wouldn't bank on it being a carbon alloy that can be heat treated.

 

Mounting the track vertically gives you all the mass under the hammer's impact zone, and that's what's important.  With a short length like that, getting every ounce of performance is important.

 

Clay will work to fill the box.  Sand is used simply because it's handy, but clay will certainly work just as well.  Just make sure to add a bit, then tamp or vibrate it down.  Then add a bit more.  

 

Instead of welding the plate on the track, I'd invest my time and energy into finding a heavier chunk of steel to use as an anvil.  Anything over forty pounds, solidly mounted, will do wonders for you.  Track is good if that's all you can get.

[Leeknivek]

Well, the track weighs about forty pounds. Like I said, I get a lot of rebound on it horizontally, but none vertically. I didn't have it securely mounted to anything either, so that may be the problem. I should be able to harden the rail either way though, right?

[DSW]

Top of a piece of rail is often work hardened from the beating of the car wheels. I wouldn't worry about hardening it too much. Chances are as long as you are working hot metal, the rail in either direction won't take an excessive amount of damage.

 

Plate is most likely mild steel and won't really harden. Hard facing rods are not cheap, and if you can't weld well, they will make your life miserable trying to get a nice flat surface to work on. Grinding will not be easy.

[Frosty]

I'm kind of losing you on the horizontal/vertical tags. Regardless, welding a plate on a piece of rail isn't going to help it at all. Rail is actually really high quality steel in the 1085 range and induction hardened on the contact face though work hardening comes into play without doubt.

 

Don't chuck the idea of welding the round piece of plate to the rail just yet though. If you're standing the rail on end in the box of soil then weld the disk on the bottom end, it'll help anchor the rail in the stand. Oh yeah, it'll add a few lbs to the rail to boot. Best of all you don't need to worry too much about making welds of a quality to withstand years of impact use. Welding mild steel to high carbon takes a little technique and adding the idea of years of hammer impact is. . . well, better to avoid the situation. It isn't undoable it just takes more than running a couple beads.

 

Good questions, keep em coming.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[arftist]

Drill 3 holes in the circumference of the plate, 3/8" if you can, 1/2" would be better. Stand the rail in the center of the plate and weld it with the 7018. Make at least 3 passes, five would be better. If you can do it safely, heat the metal, (both pieces) in your kitchen oven to 350 for an hour. Then stack up various items

(paint cans, milk crates, books, whatever you have until you get the top of the anvil to thework height you want. (for knives belly button height would be probably be good). Now measure from your plate to the floor. That is how high your stump needs to be. Get a round of hardwood and bolt your anivl to it with three lag bolts 4 or 5 inches long. Drill a full length pilot hole the same diameter as the threaded part if you don't count the threads, plus drill a clearance

hole for any unthreaded part. The clearance hole should be the same diameter of the bolt. Dish soap is a good lube for installing lag bolts (or screws) into wood. The bigger diameter round you get the better it will work, up to the point of diminishing returns, probably about 18 or 20 inches. If you can only get a small round you can bolt a floor plate onto it for stability. Weld tabs on the plate and lag into the side of the round.

 

Save the clay box thing for when you score a real anvil, which will not be that long if you are into it enough. Until then you can learn to move metal with your rail. Also don't worry about hardening the rail. Rail work hardens, the more you use it, the harder it will get.

[ThomasPowers]

I don't know what "testing it with a file" will show about hardenability  Even very high carbon steels are fileable if they are annealed and are often sold that way to make machining them easier.

[Leeknivek]

Thomas, I figured I could see if it was relatively hard with a file. I don't know too much about this sort of thing, yet, so just taking shots in the dark! That's why I'm here.

Frosty, I was considering that too. I think I'll end up doing that. I also have two cast iron, 50lb wheel chucks. If I put those under it, will that help with more mass? I don't want to try welding those, I think it will be more trouble than it's worth, but maybe silicon caulk or some other more temporary adhesive so they're decently stuck together. All of this encased in the clay, too, with maybe a foot or so of compacted clay underneath all of this. Just a thought.

Arftist, I planned out the sand box so that later on, when I can afford a 'real' anvil, I can pretty easily take out the old one and pop the new one in. I don't doubt my ambitions for blacksmithing, but who's to say I'll be able to pursue it long enough to get a better anvil? I'd rather use what I already made instead of buying something new entirely. Just saying.

Thank you all for the insight. This forum has really helped me a lot in decision making.

[arftist]

I have never bought a piece of unsplit firewood. I think it will work better if it is more sollidly mounted, thats all.

By all means, put the wheels under the plate welded on the bottom of the track, that should be plenty stable enough. Without the wheels I think you would just keep sinking into the clay, which is why I wanted you to get a stump.

 

As to the other thing, don't worry, you are already hooked. You will be getting a bigger anvil eventually.

[Leeknivek]

Yeah, you're right. I've been pining to blacksmith since I was twelve years old. Feels good to make it happen now, even if it's a humble start.

I have a tamp, so I think the sand should be sturdy enough. If not, I can always get a stump later. I'll try to keep everyone updated on how things go.

[Frosty]

Unless you weld them to the rail putting more metal things under it will actually hinder it. To make an anvil heavier the added weight has to be solidly joined or energy will be lost at the boundary. Silicone won't do it, it's not a bad thought it just won't work.

 

I wouldn't weld the disk to the bottom of a rail under almost any conditions. The fact you're using a sand box to support something long and relatively narrow like a rail makes it a natural. If you just stood a rail on end in a sandbox it'd be a fail, it'd slowly be driven down till it bottomed out against the box bottom and all the sand would be doing is holding it vertical. For a while anyway, it'd shift in whatever direction your hammer blows trend.

 

Believe me your hammer blows are NOT straight down as they should be for almost every blow you strike. Don't sweat it, everybody does the same thing while they're learning. It's natural on an intuitive level to push or pull the hammer as it strikes, it's just not effective except under rare conditions. Anyway, your rail would lean more with every blow and you'd have to adjust it once in a while. Not a big thing but it'd happen, probably will anyway but the plate should make it more stable.

 

About the sand, use crushed sand rather than washed beach, river, etc. sand. Alluvial sands are rounded particles so they won't compact solidly, no matter how much or hard your tamp it, it'll shift. Crushed sand is angular and will key together so it can be compacted hard. Give it about 3-5% clay and it can be compacted as hard as concrete and will  NOT shift under hand hammering.

 

Been wanting to blacksmith since you were twelve eh? Got a late start I see, I've wanted to blacksmith since I can remember. I ran the basic story in the recent "how'd you get started" thread. (Whatever the subject line actually says) Most of us here have wanted to do this stuff since we were little. Humble starts are good, kids tend to think they're legends in the making, I sure did. I was chock full of ideas I thought couldn't fail, a little humble would've been a good thing.

 

We all had to learn the craft muscle memory deep, it literally has to become reflex. Nobody is born knowing any of this stuff. I think of the learning process as failure analysis and correction. A good failure actually excites me by presenting me with something good to learn, sometimes a number of things.

 

I still want to be a blacksmith when I grow up, I just don't want to top out on the learning curve.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Leeknivek]

Yeah, that's what I figured. Never that easy, is it?

I think I'll just have to tamp it as best as I can and keep up on it. Not as plug-and-play as a traditional anvil, but I think it'll work well enough to get me started.

You're saying the disc would help from making the rail bottom out in the sandbox? By giving it more surface area? I might just get a bigger piece of plate entirely to do that, if that's the case.

I was always fascinated by the blacksmiths at fairs or on tv, and it's heartbreaking to know its that one-in-a-million chance to be able to earn a living like that, though I'd like to do it as a hobby even. It's been making my real job go by a little faster. I didn't know there was such a thing as railroad anvils or brake drum forges until recently - and I didn't pursue it until I was offered an old brake drum in return for helping my cousin change his drum brakes. That was a couple months ago, and after buying a welder, making trips every week to the scrap yard, and reading everything I can find, it's nice to finally turn it into a reality.

And don't worry about the learning curve , frosty - if I've figured out one thing in life, it's that the curve is infinite and exponential.

[Frosty]

All the plate on the bottom end will really do is help prevent the rail from shifting, up down or sideways, welding a larger one on isn't going to make a lot of difference. However if you happen to stumble onto a piece of plate that's a few inches thick let us know we'll point you to threads where folk make anvils from pate.

 

Oh and I got going on the sand, I used to work for the Dept of Highways, started in the soils lab, then as an exploration driller. We lived soil's mechanical properties. A LITTLE fines in the sand will help it bind and become solid. The 3-5% clay is something you should ignore, it came to me as I drifted off to sleep last night those numbers are in the danger range. 0.5-1% are gooder. If you wanted it to compact like stone it has to be dampened and you don't really want the rail imbedded in a concrete like stand. Just snug and solid are the goal.

 

The more skill you develop the more plug and play things will get or experienced smiths would be in trouble using someone else's kit. You'll get to where compensating for a little tilt or difference in height won't even be conscious, you'll just do it. Sure part of the gang here are professional production blacksmiths so having everything exactly what and where it's supposed to be is critical. for hobbyists like I am stuff moving around when I'm not using it is no big thing. Heck I don't know where half my tools are till I hunt them down.

 

There's another thing to consider using a rail standing on end, the flange and web are just waiting to be shaped into useful things, narrow fuller, hot cut, butcher, etc. Just a little time with a disk grinder and you have a bunch of handy stuff.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Leeknivek]

Ok, that's fair enough. I was at the yard today and made a new purchase, actually. Not a piece of plate, but a large piece of steel. Probably mild steel, but not sure. It's 85 lbs, about 16x4"x8" maybe. One of the wide sides is crowned, about an inch and a half deep. Should be a good supplement to the rail, as I have room to put both of then in the sand. Not sure about rebound but he said it was hard enable. Wouldn't say what kind of steel, just "reggalur iyun steel". It'll work, though.

I was using clay because that's what I have - 20 acres of sand with a tiny bit of gravel. Most of the gravel was dug out and sold, though. It compacts but I guess I can find some sand there too. I mean, if you stick a post anvil in the dirt, it can't be any worse than that, I don't think. Just a guess - I'm ready to hear otherwise too lol.

I was planning on taking the web to the bench grinder, to do just that. I couldn't find any square tubing so I think that'll make a good replacement for hardies for now. I'll post a picture of the block of steel I got later on when I go to the shop.

[Frosty]

Good, now you're getting in the swing, standing the rail on end in whatever holds it securely is all you need. I'm thinking the bar you just brought home will make a fine anvil, 85lbs. is a good weight and all the mass will be under the hammer so it'll be very effective for it's weight.

 

Now, there's a surprise for you, the guy at the scrap yard telling you the piece of scrap he's hoping you'll buy is just the thing you need. Of course it could be something really good, say 4140 or similar and make a perfect blade anvil. You might want to put it in a box of it's own. You'd be able to keep it close enough to be handy but not in the way, that and having two pieces of massy steel in the same sandbox might make the one not being used shake loose under the vibration.

 

I can explain how that works if you'd like but I get awful windy on any given day and I'm trying to learn to control that. <sigh>

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Sounds like you have two anvils! The 4x8 " demention gives you a good anvil, but if you mount it so you can flip it you can just happily front diferant profiles in the faces for diferant tasks,
Same goes for the rail, now that you have the big flat anvil, you can really get crazy with it,
Next thing you need is a bick, bickern, bick iron or horn (all the same animal) you might want to look for a broken large over the road truck axle shaft (2")
And your in business ;-) better than the first 2000 years of our craft!

[Judson Yaggy]

4x8x16 is about 125 lbs.  I'd stand it on the long dimension and work on the 4x8 face, puts the most mass under your hammer.  

[Leeknivek]

It's got about the same rebound as the rail, from what I can tell. I'm using a 2lb hammer and if I let it it swings right back up to where I want it to be. I'll still get tired, I'm sure, but not nearly as much.

Yeah, the guy at the yard was pretty shifty. He had a big fat cigar hanging out of his mouth, as he was perched up on his forklift. Everyone else had big beards and cigarettes, I felt like I was in mad max at this yard. The thing is, though, is that I subtly asked him if he knew what kind of steel it was, then if it was hardenable, to which he said yes and because of that it'll be 40 cents a pound. At the other hard I buy from, it's 20 cents a pound (though their selection is next to nothing). I took his word for it under the assumption that even if it is not hardenable, it will still be useable and will suit me well. I don't know if I was ripped off or what, but I think it's ok.

That's a good thought on separate boxes, I didn't think of that. The box is pretty big though, 20"x20" so if I ever get a bigger 'anvil' it'll be going in there.

Charles, I think that's what I'll do with the rail. I started grinding it but I only have a bench grinder and trying to be accurate holding a 40lb rail up to a bench grinder is tough. I'm also out of acetylene so I'll have to wait a while before I start that.

Judson, it might be a little smaller, I only guessed those dimensions. I haven't actually measured it yet but it has a decently large face while still being long enough to provide a lot of mass.

I have another question - I couldn't find any square tubing to use as a hardie hole so I'm wondering if putting one into the end of a 4x4 post would be a good idea. The stand is made of four 4x4's in each corner, each 36" long, and secured string enough that it shouldn't break unless under the most extreme circumstances.

I have sheet metal and could line the 4x4" post hardie hole with it, to make it a little stronger and more fireproof. The only problem I think will be that if something gets stuck I'll have to pry it out instead of going through the bottom. Otherwise, I think it'll be steady.

[Frosty]

Yeah, the guys at scrap yards don't have a high dollar profession so it's not a bad idea to keep your own council. However think of this one as a good public relations outlay. Bring the guys a box of donuts now and then and ask to give you a call if they see whatever you may be looking for. It's appalling how many blacksmithing tools go to the scrappers. Having a friend in the yard is a good thing.

 

forget trying to grind rail on a bench grinder, it's too heavy and awkward  to do safely or well. You need at least one disk grinder anyway so go get one. What we called peanut grinders, 4"-5" disk grinders are really handy, I have 3. for heavier work I really like my 9" Millwaukee, it's a workhorse but it can bite great big ugly chunks out of your hide.

 

A hardy hole or stake holder is a good thing but it doesn't need to be attached to your anvil. The 4"x4" post is getting on the page and will work. Cutting or broaching a square hole off center in a piece of plate that is bolted to the 4"x4" post is a better stake holder for the very drive a stuck stake out, reason.

 

You can always weld angle iron together to make the hardy hole/stake plate, whatever you want to call it. Mounting it on the stand you have is perfect. Even if it isn't strong enough it'll still last you a long time. I call it good to go, for now at least.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Leeknivek]

 

 

 

Here she is. I took a wire wheel to the face, to clean it up some, and gave about a 1/8" radius on the edges. I'm not sure how much I'll like on there, so I only did a little as I can go back later and do more. I'm also considering, with a very big maybe, if I should grind off the rounded edge into a sloped step - like on the Austrian/church window anvils. I plan on using this primarily by myself but I've also enlisted my brother as a striker for later on. I don't want to end up with chipped edges and I've read that it helps to have a very deep radius, as seen on the Austrian styles, to prevent this. Since it's almost 'extra' on the face, it wouldn't be much of a loss. Only a lot of work. 

 

A hardy hole or stake holder is a good thing but it doesn't need to be attached to your anvil. The 4"x4" post is getting on the page and will work. Cutting or broaching a square hole off center in a piece of plate that is bolted to the 4"x4" post is a better stake holder for the very drive a stuck stake out, reason.

 

 

Now, what if I got a long piece of 1/2" plate, or a forklift tine even, - say 20" - and put it across on edge of my anvil stand? So that it rests on two corners. I could drill out and file two hardies on either end, one for a semi-permanent bick, and another for general use. In between, I could put pritchel holes of varying sizes, Or hardies, even, and use the edges to lag-bolt the plate down. I could even do the same to the opposing side at some point, making it into some sort of swage block. This way, I'll be making do with a non-traditional anvil but also conveniently have most of it and some other perks, all in the same 'Metal Beating Podium', as my cousin has deemed it.

[Judson Yaggy]

You have there a perfectly functional anvil, no modifications, holes, or welded on bits needed.  Get some metal hot and hit it, you are probably more limited by your skill than your anvil and the fix for skills is PRACTICE.  As long as you have that anvil sitting on a firm base you are off and running.

 

I see you are in New England.  Have you joined NEB yet?  We have a few active sub-chapters in CT. http://www.newenglandblacksmiths.org

[Leeknivek]

I looked at their website recently, but I didn't want to invest $20 into that just yet. Probably a couple months down the road.

[evfreek]

Joining a blacksmith association is money well spent.  At least it has worked out pretty well for me and my buddies.

 

As for horizontal vs vertical and observations of rebound, you should be aware that rebound does not necessarily imply efficiency.  Count the blows required to taper a piece of 1/2" square in both orientations.  Try alternating.  The results may be interesting.  That doesn't mean that I don't like horizontal.  I have two railroad track anvils.  The vertical one is great for all kinds of forging.  The horizontal one is good for straightening sheet metal and flattening pipe ends.