Damascus 12 bore shotgun

[johnnie]

Hi guys,

I have very kindly been given a double barrelled 12 bore damasus shotgun.

The age is aprox 150 years old and I want to restore it.

What is the best way of cleaning the damascus without etching to too much?

There is very delicate engraving around the trigger guard etc and would hate to
damage it.

Don't think the photos are very good but hope you can get an idea of what I've got.

Thanks for any advice in advance,

Johnnie.

[notownkid]

DON'T SHOOT IT!  BEST ADVICE I CAN GIVE.

[dablacksmith]

you can clean it with 4 ot steel wool and oil ... go lightly . also there are extremely fine wire wheels that can be used to clean ... they are pricy but useful .you can purchace them at gunsmiths supply houses like brownells. clean the bore throughly ... a shotgun of that age used blackpowder rounds and blackpowder is corrosive. If you want to make it fire the safe thing is to get barrel inserts that will resize it to 20 ga . gunsmiths can do this tho it is spendy!and remember early shotguns used paper cartriges and different leingths (some were 2 1/2 some were 2 9/16 ect) . I have friends who load they're own shotgun shells with blackpowder and shoot damascus shotguns but they have throughly checked out the barrels.what can happen is corrosion can get into the damascus and cause the barrels to delaminate (split open) not good .. also early on people did not understand the difference between the blackpowder rounds and the modern (higher pressure) rounds and the difference between paper shells and plastic . the forcing cones are different between the shells.using a modern plastic shell in a old gun setup for paper greatly increased pressures and caused failures (kaboom).that is why people say not to shoot damascus shotguns.

[ThomasPowers]

It's a beautiful gun and you are lucky to own it.  I would suggest asking this on a site dedicated to antique guns rather than on one full of folks who think that 1000 degC and a 2 kilo hammer solves most problems...

[macbruce]

DON'T CHANGE THE FINISH, clean it and let it be......Err on the side of caution as dablacksmith says and have a gunsmith look it over if you intend to fire it. Modern ammo NO WAY............

[Dan P.]

What macbruce said. Don't try and shine it up. As long as there is no active rust, just oil and clean with a cloth or chamois, maybe a soft brush, like a toothbrush, to get any crud out. I wouldn't recommend wire wool. And a gunsmith specializing in old guns is the person to speak to.

[rockstar.esq]

I'll pile onto what Macbruce said - the grubby junk is "patina" to a collector and they value it more than the wood and steel.

 

Antiques roadshow frequently has folks on who converted something priceless to worthless by simply cleaning the object.

 

Even if it's not covered in gunk, it's possible to change material aspects of the piece that validate it's age.

 

Stuff like roll marks, engraving, and inlay take a very practiced hand to clean without messing anything up. Entire scholarly works have been published on the font size, depth of embossing, and bluing techniques of famous arms makers.  Change any of that and the experts will notice.

 

Some antique arms were bone case hardened which gives them a unique mottled appearance.  It's hard to fake a color case hardening so polishing it off removes the strongest evidence that it's a legit antique.

[johnnie]

Thanks guys,
I guessed a recognised gunsmith was the best way.

It really is a piece of art and the workmanship is stunning and not something I want to ruin.

I think it deserves to be fired again with the right cartridges and after being certified safe for use.

It would seem a same just to be hung on a beam and left. Not an everyday gun but working all the same.

Its conditon is very good. No rust just old and sad looking.

The inlay or engraving is stunning as is the damascus pattern.

I am glad I asked rather than get to work and make a mess of it.

Thanks again for your comments and advise!

[matto]

Looks just like my Roberts Brothers, it is dated at 1856 English black powder Damascus twist double barrel shotgun. A gun shop Cana look at the marking stamps and date it and tell you if it is a black power gun. Or you can get a gun ble book and look the markings up your self. I use Flitz polish on all my guns. Great stuff. Cleans and polishes.

[HWooldridge]

It's definitely black powder but 1856 is early for center fire shotshells - I'm a bit too tired to check references but IIRC the only widespread fixed cartridges in the American Civil War were rimfire versions for the Henry and Spencer rifles. Early shotshells were pinfire so this gun may have been modified at some point. I welcome anyone with more accurate knowledge to correct me.

Irrespective of provenance, I would hang it on the wall and not shoot it. My dad had a damascus shotgun blow up in his hands with "proper" blackpowder shells and he carried the shrapnel in his arms until his death. I have fired many antique weapons during my life and it is very difficult to predict whether an old gun will hold together when the trigger is pulled.

Just my two pence...FWIW

[Frosty]

Johnnie: If you absolutely MUST try restoring it, try a museum for references to a qualified restorer of antiquities. There's almost nothing you or I could to to a piece like that without diminishing it's value at best to virtually destroying it's value at worst.

 

A LIGHT oiling is probably the most you can do for it without a restoration specialist cursing you. Even oil can damage the wood so be VERY LIGHT with it if you must. If you must oil it store it barrel down to help prevent oil from migrating into the wood.

 

Firing it is likely to be a crap shoot even if its been certified. There's not much an inspector can tell you about the quality and condition of the welds. Maybe cat scanning it but. . .

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[DSW]

Firing it is likely to be a crap shoot even if its been certified. There's not much an inspector can tell you about the quality and condition of the welds. Maybe cat scanning it but. . .

 

 

One option would be to have the barrels proofed. Even then there's still the chance it might fail, but there's less of one. However proofing the barrels is an all or nothing type of thing. Since proof loads are over charges, the assumption is that if the barrels are still good after the proof loads, they should be safe for normal loads. However if the weapon has issues and fails, you've most likely trashed it, Some places will also insist they stamp the gun once it's been proofed. This would destroy some of it's value.

 

Note that proofs for black power loads are different than proofs for modern shot shells. Make sure that the gunsmith you talk to if you want to get it proofed understands that you intend to use this only with black powder. There's a bigger chance of destroying the gun if he proofs it with modern loads.

[Gazz]

Tread lightly my friend.  I would only use some very fine bronze wool and light oil on the metal parts and some mild soap and a rag on the wood parts.  The bronze wool will leave a slightly copper tinge to the metal but that can be removed with a bore cleaner that contains a slight amount of ammonia.  There are many people who do shoot Damascus barreled guns but unless you really need to, why?  The gun looks to be in fine shape and has some value as a collectable.  A website that you can find more info at is doublegunshop.com but you will need some better pictures.

[ThomasPowers]

My Mat Sci Professor was nearly killed by a pressure vessel that was over amped once and then used at under the rating afterwards.  The over pressure started a crack that cycling under pressure finally lead to "catastrophic failure"  I would be hesitant to proof it and then shoot it.

[SmoothBore]

NO ... NO ... NO ... NO .....

 

NO steel wool, ... NO WIRE WHEELS, ... or any other abrasive process.

 

Don't "clean" it beyond the normal process of Powder Solvent ( Hoppes #9 ) and, a BRONZE Bore Brush.

 

You can wipe down the exterior surfacws with Hoppes as well ( even the wood ), ... and lightly oil ALL surfaces, inside and out.

 

 

Obviously, you can't shoot it with modern ammunition, ... so there's no point in destroying the patina.

 

Is there a name, ... or any maker's marks, ( perhaps under the Forearm ) ?

 

What is the length of the Chambers ?

 

How did you arrive at the "150" year old estimate ?

 

( "Rabbit Ear" damascus barreled doubles, were widely produced, into the 1920's ..... )

 

From the style of the Forearm, ... and the relatively "straight" Stock, ... I'd guess it's later than 1900.

 

 

If you have the Maker's Name, ... and a serial number, ... it's quite likely the year of manufacture can be easily determined.

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

When i saw the advice about using abrasives on a fine old double, ... I skipped over all the subsequent posts, ( giving very good advice ) ... and rushed to post the above.

 

Then I went back and read the rest, ... and learned that the subject had already been well covered.  :huh:

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

In my collection, ... there's an Ithaca 2 barrel set, "Flues" model double, from 1911, ... where the 30" full & full ( Waterfowl ) barrel set, is made from "Fluid" Steel, ... and the 27" Cylinder & Improved Cylinder ( Bird ) barrel set, is Damascus.

 

All the serial numbers match, ... indicating that the gun was intentionally built, using the different processes.

 

This reflects the attitudes of the day, ... that the "new" Fluid Steel barrels were more suited to the heavy loads associated with Waterfowling, ... but Damascus was favored for "light" quick handleing barrels, shooting light loads, more suited to "Field" conditions.

 

It's also important to note, ... that the modern "Smokeless" Ammunition of that era, was loaded to develop substantially lower pressures than todays Shotshells.

 

 

 

.

[jdinbr]

There are at least two folks recommending he use abrasives on the outside of this gun. 

Shouldn't advice come from folks in the know?  Why give advice if  you don't know?

[MOONY]

hi Johnnie
For all my advice is worth, i own a ww greener single barrel full Damascus [pattern welded] when i purchased it it was a rusty old pipe on a nice timber stock , i used the fines brasso polish and some cooking oil in my hand, that i had in a soft cotton cloth glove ,i polished it for many a hour till all the rust was removes , after cleaning the rust on out side, i then pulled a brass brush through the bore count less time with the same brasso and cooking old mix in the bore till it was shining

after all metal had been cleaned i them washed the metal with spray and wipe, kitchen cleaner . to remove the brasso and cooking oil then i pulled gun oil through the bore on cloth,
i then treated the out barrel with ferric chloride to bring back the pattern on the metal then i used bicab soda to neutralise the acid then immediately after the bicab i used gun oil on the out barrel to protect it ,the pattern has a contrast dark and light
it looks like knew
, the timber i just wiped with the same spray and wipe then when clean, i put some Danish oil to protect the timer an then it was complete , i did not want to fire mine ,
but the fools i purchased the ww greener of where firing it with modern ammo, not knowing it was pattern welded barrel

as to firing your gun , i might down load the shells with black powder so as the charge are not to heavy , after you get lt looked at competent gun smith
nice to see the old pattern welds still about
enjoy and think how much effort the persons that welded the metal and the hand working to create these works of art

and if your gun is not a rusty pipe i would just clean it and oil it and that is all that is need to keep the natural patina that life has given this lovely shot gun


i forgot to say my ww greener is dated 1890 , it is open hammer ,with under turn leaver that is also the trigger guard to open the breech
and i would not fire yours shoty ! just look an wonder
moony

[johnnie]

Thanks for the advise guys!
@Smootbore I cannot find the maker's mark anywhere. On the forearm there is just the choke number and a couple of what seems like fractions???
As for the age I remain clueless other than it was supposedly in my friend family since around the 1870's.
Not started the clean up yet but no doubt I will get around to it eventually.
Thanks again

[George Geist]

I'd be inclined to agree with those who advise against shooting it-especially if it's one you like. Let it be a retired wall hangar.

However........

There is one exception to that. If the gun has recent proof marks from either the London or Birmingham proof house. Any weapon that passes muster there go right ahead and do whatever you want with it. ;)

George

[Dan P.]

 

There is one exception to that. If the gun has recent proof marks from either the London or Birmingham proof house. Any weapon that passes muster there go right ahead and do whatever you want with it. ;)

George

 

This is a very irresponsible thing to say. 

 

If in doubt (and you should be) take it to someone who will accept liability for their decision of whether it can be fired or not. Do not trust random internet opinions when it comes to questions of safety, especially where metal and explosives mix.

[Wayne]

I agree with Dan P,

Proof marks tell you the gun was safe when it was made, not how safe it is now.

As it stands you do not know how old the gun is and how it has been treated - used/abused.

It would be a shame to ruin a nice old gun like that, get some advice on cleaning ( that will not destroy the patination and ageing)

and keep it as a family heirloom. Or get it valued and use it to fund a new shotgun.

 

Wayne

[George Geist]

This is a very irresponsible thing to say. 

 

If in doubt (and you should be) take it to someone who will accept liability for their decision of whether it can be fired or not. Do not trust random internet opinions when it comes to questions of safety, especially where metal and explosives mix.

I'd certainly agree about random internet opinions. I'd absolutely trust the London and Birmingham proof houses though. As I said if they give any firearm the ok it can be trusted.

George

[SmoothBore]

@Smootbore I cannot find the maker's mark anywhere. On the forearm there is just the choke number and a couple of what seems like fractions???
As for the age I remain clueless other than it was supposedly in my friend family since around the 1870's.

 

 

 

 

There are several systems that might have been usd to designate the degree of choke in the barrels, and it might have been stamped on the "left" barrel, or perhaps stamped individually on each barrel, ... probably on a surface that's only visible when the breech is open.

 

Those designations might have been marked as "fractions" ( 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 or Full Choke ) or with letters ( IC for "Improved Cylinder" ( 1/4 ) Bore, .. M for "Modified" (1/2 ) Choke, ... .IM for "Improved Modified" ( 3/4 ) Choke, ... and F for a "Full" Choke Bore.

 

Different manufacturers also used a variety of other symbols to designate choke, ... possibly a series of ( o ) markings, ( o, oo, ooo ) ... or the more elaborate "Browning" system, of asterisks, dashes and letters ( ***, **s, **-, **, *-, * ) ... signifying "Cylinder" Bore ( *** ), ... "Skeet" Bore ( **s ), ... "Improved Cylinder" Bore ( **- ), ... "Modified" Choke ( ** ), ... "Improved Modified" Choke ( *- ) ... and "Full" Choke ( * ).

 

Information about any of that could be useful in identifying the Manufacturer.

 

 

The other markings that would likely be expressed in "fractions", would be the length of the Chambers.

 

Over the years, and depending somewhat on the Country or Orrigin, ... 12 Bore Guns have been built with 2 1/4", ... 2 1/2", ... 2 9/16", ... 2 5/8", ... 2 3/4", ... and in modern times, ... 3", ... and 3 1/2" Chambers.

 

It's very likely that some of the "fractions" you're seeing, are the Chamber lengths, ... with 2 3/4" being the most common, ... but 2 9/16" being quite common, as well, ... particularly on older guns.

 

 

Aside from the barrels, the side plates of the Receiver are the most likely place to find the Manufacturers name.

 

Often, the stamping on the side plates was done very lightly, ... with small letters, ... to prevent distorting the thin plates.

 

If there truly are no Makers Marks, you probably have what's commonly referred to as a "Hardware" gun, ... that was built by one of the mass production Gun Makers of the 19th century.

 

 

In those days, it was not uncommon for a large Hardware or Dry Goods Store, to contract with the mass producers, for unmarked "generic" guns, ... that they would then sell under their own names.

 

 

Sometimes, it's virtually impossible to establish who made a particular gun, ... even though it may be "identical" to another, that bears a recognized Makers Mark.

 

 

 

.

[johnnie]

Thanks Smoothbore
Here's a couple more pics of it.





Can't understand why a manufacturer would go to the trouble of forging Damascus barrels and not put their stamp on it.
Especially back then whenever then was!!

[LawnJockey]

That pitting on the barrel would have me concerned.  All those stamped in marks have meanings, they are called proof marks and a lot can be learned by researching them.