Joel OF Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I'm going to make a tool to help keep bars from dog-legging when upsetting the ends. I've got a couple ideas in mind but I'm curious to see if anyone has come up with a tool like this and how you went about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I've never heard of such an animal and will certainly look forward to seeing what you come up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Use your hammer to keep things straight during the upsetting process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I'm going to make a tool to help keep bars from dog-legging when upsetting the ends. I've got a couple ideas in mind but I'm curious to see if anyone has come up with a tool like this and how you went about it? What size bar you talking about? x section and length ? Three tools, leg vise, floor plate (or similar solid place) and hammer. Pneumatic / hydraulic set up There is also a manually lever operated tool for upsetting tyres for wheels that used to be avaialble Looking forward to seeing your solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Ubu Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Some kind of pipe to support the part you don't want to bend is the obvious design but localizing the heat exclusively to the part you want to upset accomplishes a similar result. Thing about a tool is that you would probably need a bunch of different sizes of the same tool for different situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashelle Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 There is a video out there, I can't remember who's at the moment. Where the blacksmith does the upsetting for his tong reins in a series of perpendicular chambers. He heats a few at a time. Puts them in a vertical slot, (each in their own slot) locks it closed, then uses a sledge. Not a very good description but hope it made sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 There is a video out there, I can't remember who's at the moment. Where the blacksmith does the upsetting for his tong reins in a series of perpendicular chambers. He heats a few at a time. Puts them in a vertical slot, (each in their own slot) locks it closed, then uses a sledge. Not a very good description but hope it made sense. Denis Frechette - The Iron Workshop Use your hammer to keep things straight during the upsetting process. I find that thin stock can dogleg so easily, even with spot heating and quenching, that hammering it back straight often means leaving a bunch of hammer marks you didn't want, and getting out a hide mallet & wood block gets time consuming. Better to keep it straight and scuff free from the start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashelle Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 That's it I just found the link. So much for my memory. I could see how that particular jig would be useful for upsetting with minimal doglegging. You could try using a longer jig then stops put in the bottom to correct for shrinkage, possibly another slot starting a tighter fit. Each slot could be used for different sizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Mullins Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Ya'll beat me to it, I immediately thought of the same video when I read the question. I'd also like to see what you come up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 As I recall Weygers mentions an upsetting matrix in the Complete Modern Blacksmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 It's in the complete modern blacksmith(vs the making of tools or recycling use and repair of tools), chapter 5. Page 123 if you have the sort of triple book version. Looks useful for short upsets on bar ends, it's written as being for bolt heads so depending on your intent it may or may not be applicable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everything Mac Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Ya'll beat me to it, I immediately thought of the same video when I read the question. I'd also like to see what you come up with. Funnily enough so did I. Great minds etc etc. Best of luck with the jig. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Upsetting can be done by press just as well as hammer. The hardest part is making the "grippers" Localized heat can be provided by a torch. Hand upsetting when done with a new fangled induction forge is easy due to the extremely localized nature of the heating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Dave Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Clearly, the guy who made the video is in the production of tongs. He developed a system to make it easier. I don't think you would go to all that time and effort in making the jig, if you only needed one set of tongs. I don't think he is indicating not developing your skills and I assume others have done the same after making many a tong set. I remember a video, by Grant Sarver, I believe, that showed him on his assembly line making tongs with his hydraulic presses and using an induction heating machine. A time saver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuge Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I'm not trying to be inflammatory in my question, but what's wrong with developing the skill to Upset? You can build a jig for a range of size, but what happens when you're outside that range. My common upset sizes go from 3/8 round for welding leaf stems to 1 by 1 1/2 for heel tenons. I'd need a lot of jigs to cover that range of sizes. Add to that, I frequntly upset in the center of the bar. Watching the video, in the time he's gone through four heats and upsets, I've already scarfed and welded on the reins. I guess it's fine if you're in production to sell tongs, but a lot of work if you're making just for yourself. I think it is because upsetting kinda stinks. It is time consuming and usually physically difficult. Upsetting can be tough your body as well. Once you've done it a bunch it is appealing to find a better way. Now upsetting with induction...pure pleasure! I have made one of the matrix dies ala Weygers and will try to dig it out of the stash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Gerald, my great grandfather was a full time smith in a small AR, USA, hill town. I don't remember him as he wore out his body and died at about the age I am now when I was in low single digits. *I* plan to live to a ripe old age and be a scandal at the old folks home and and be able to tell my great grand kids "run that Boggs fellow off!..." (or at least "drag up another rocker for him and get him a beer!" Yup we've taken up a craft renowned for hard work; *however* look at all the patents take out by smiths *trying* to make their jobs easier! (And other people's as well...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuge Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 But we're BLACKSMITHS!!! It's not suppose to be easy. Swinging a hammer all day is also time consuming and usually physically difficult, but I'm a blacksmith, what else am I going to do? :-) After you've done it a bunch of times, it should have gotten easier. Plus, think of the shoulders you'll have :-) What mr Frosty said. I do a lot of forging and most of my friends think that I work really hard, sweating and grunting. Maybe in my twenties. Now days I pivot my foot or pull a lever. Maybe knock around a piece with a hand hammer at the end to tighten it up. I think it's important to build skills by hand and smart to then carry on with power. Not many dudes can get away with taking that abuse their whole career. You may get big shoulders but your tendons and carpel tunnels will be toast. Could be you are one of the anomalies Gerald. Whatever works, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuge Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Like I said, you seem to be one of the über varieties. I do love a good upset. I think it's pretty cool that it's a difficult procedure. For that reason you don't see a nice big upset in a lot of people's designs. Makes the move all the more valuable. Here's a pic of the upsetting die. it features a hole clear through the hardy and a flare at the top. You still have to bump out the middle somewhere so it grabs in the die. Maybe that's why I didn't use it that much as that was a pain to do. This one is for 3/8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Well I've been called "the ancient smith Wilelm" in print before in Finland and yes I do enjoy moving my 165# anvil from the stump into the truck in front of the young lads in their 20's who thought me old and feeble; but I recognize the problems that over doing it can cause when factored in with a person's own body---my hands hurt a lot nowadays due to a family trait towards arthritis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I was thinking the Weygers style upsetting matrix/tube would work well if suspended over a block to act as a depth guide and anvil to avoid needing to either neck down below where you want the upset, or pre-upset to get the bar to seat itself without just falling through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Some folks make it on brute strength, some make it on intellect, others on charm. I've found that people are rarely aware of how close they come to serious career-ending injury. I've found that the less I rely on blind luck to protect me from injury - the less often I come up hurt. Hard work is a virtue- but it's wasteful to limit your potential taking risks. Lots of go-hard journeymen die within 6 months of retirement. I doubt any of their families were happy with that outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 But we're BLACKSMITHS!!! It's not suppose to be easy. Swinging a hammer all day is also time consuming and usually physically difficult, but I'm a blacksmith, what else am I going to do? :-) After you've done it a bunch of times, it should have gotten easier. Plus, think of the shoulders you'll have :-) So I guess you wouldn't have much use for a power hammer then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 I made an upsetter. I made one set of dies (grippers) for it, since I made it for one job and only needed to upset 1/2x1/2. I could make other size grippers but they are a lot of work to make. My upsetter is based on a screw press. ( not a fly press) The two sets of grippers are large chunks of steel which I tapered severely then split in half length-wise. I then machined slots slightly less than 1/4" deep, 1/2" wide, the length of each piece. I made two matching tapered receivers and mounted them in the press on linear guide shafts (two). In use I would play an oxy-propane rose bud upon the steel while I closed the press. It works very well and is physically easy to operate. This of course is for making bulges in the middle not the ends of a bar. I did this for a big grill that had the bars pass right through each other. It was pretty much the only way I was capable of doing the job. Had I had an induction forge I probably would not have built the upsetter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Mullins Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 I will agree that some gym/exercise/fitness time would probably do most if not all of us a great deal of good. The thread kind of got off topic but I have found this discussion quite interesting and I think the one thing we can all agree on (maybe) is that we will all never agree on everything : ) . I have a 20 year old injury to my right arm that I deal with daily. I am still able to hammer, but I know to extend my time at the forge a powerhammer will be of great benefit. I plan to build one this year and I am not going to hang my head for doing so (power hammers of some type have been around for centuries after all). Lets face it, a mix of the modern and the traditional is inevitable, and part of the evolution of the craft. Where that boundary lies is a question I guess we each have to answer for ourselves. I try to do things traditionaly, i.e. forge to finish, punch vs drill, rivet vs weld, etc, but I am not going to get rid of my band saw, mig welder, belt sander, or drill press etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Frank Turley does Tai Chi, I was involved in regular Yoga classes for years. Not necessarily strength but keeping the tendons and joints working as smithing tends to use *some* of them in *certain* ways and you need to keep all of them working in all ways. I have bone spurs in my shoulders---had one removed laproscopically the other is just waiting till it causes more problems. What fired the one off was scything my yard---different motion and different stresses than what I was üsed to" luckily my rotor cuff looked in very good shape! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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