dosullivan Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Hi all, this is probably very simple but im struggling to figure out how the forging of this old poker head was done! It started as a square bar... then smoothly shouldered down to meet a rounded section. Then finally forged into a nice round head. I can understand forging from square to round, but how to make the transition so nicely as shown? And how would the round section have been upset to get the mass required for the round head. Any advise would be much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Special Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I'm thinking...and someone please correct me as needed, use a monkey tool to dress the shoulders, and then forge weld a nut on the end of the rod and round it into a sphere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 An ordinary tenon is forged on the square bar. Then a collar is wrapped around the end of the tenon, forge welded and shaped into the squat ball. When wrapping the collar be certain not to let the ends meet or it will not weld to the tenon.This is why you shouldn't use a nut. If a nut is used you will end up forging the nut and making it's opening larger, thus preventing it from welding to the tenon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 This looks to me as though it started as square bar and was placed in a large ball swage under a power hammer. You often get some material upset from the die squeeze so it would be possible for the ball to be slightly larger in diameter than the parent bar's section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 As for the lower transition looks a lot like what I get when I use my swing arm fuller that has about 1/2" diameter rods as the impact surfaces. I made it to do blade/tang transitions for big blades and use it a lot around the shop for other tasks--like making chiles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dosullivan Posted February 5, 2014 Author Share Posted February 5, 2014 Thaks to al for your replies. So is perhaps a spring fuller (made with 1/2 inch round) the easiest and neatest way to achieve a smooth curved shoulder from square to round? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 As with any square to round forging, do and "S-O-R." First, fuller square, then the corners to make an octagon, then round by rotating. This is a demarcation. Forge away from the fullering with edge-to-edge hammer blows, or use a radiused set hammer over the anvil edge radius. A forge welded collar will blow your hat in the crick. You might consider upsetting the bar end before applying the collar. More fun than people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I really like my swing arm fuller especially as I have the top arm bolted to the upright with a die spring holding the system in alignment----doesn't get out of alignment after hard usage and I can preset the arm at any position so it fits the workpiece with no loss of time. (I actually extended the arm slightly beyond the upright so I can tap it with the hammer to raise it and the spring will hold it in place.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divermike Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Couldn't the end have been upset as a first step, then the tenon done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Couldn't the end have been upset as a first step, then the tenon done? Wouldn't that be cheating Mike? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Wouldn't that be cheating Mike? Frosty The Lucky. Come on Frosty, No such thing as cheating in smithing' its just another journey to get to the end result, could be quicker, or take longer, or the necessary skills to do it in the 'proper' manner are not available. So long as it is safely done and looks the part, objective achieved, Also depends on the tools you have available at the time Some dimensions would have been helpful on the one pictured as the proportions seem strange for a purpose made poker handle, if it is the handle, and the shoulders are not particularly square and clean it almost looks like an old badly worn small back stile off a swinging bracket in a fireplace, and this was the section for the top journal There a various ways to make it, depending on tooling available, most have already been mentioned, To quote an earlier response, and no offence meant "If a nut is used you will end up forging the nut and making it's opening larger, thus preventing it from welding to the tenon" If this is occuring the parts to be united are not at welding temperature, Welding a nut on to form the ball is a well established and easy method and does work, Round up your bar either on anvil and file, or use top and bottom swages, Forge a short taper to fit a suitable nut, try the nut on so that the taper protrudes beyond the nut face. Reheat the tapered end and behind giving it a good soaking heat, pre heat the nut at the same time in the side of the fire, Place this preheated nut onto the taper and seat it using a bolster or monkey tool, make sure there is a protruding end or you will have a void in the end of your finished ball/cube/hex Quickly replace into fire and bring this assembly slowly up to welding heat, Slowly, allowing heat to soak right through both pieces then bring out and lightly tap to secure Then back into fire and repeat the soak up to welding heat, then you can consolidate your weld and form the ball either over the anvil edge/horn or a suitable swage Finish with hot rasp if required. No need to use flux, but if you feel you need to, flux when and how you feel appropriate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Come on Frosty, No such thing as cheating in smithing' its just another journey to get to the end result, could be quicker, or take longer, or the necessary skills to do it in the 'proper' manner are not available. So long as it is safely done and looks the part, objective achieved, Also depends on the tools you have available at the time Some dimensions would have been helpful on the one pictured as the proportions seem strange for a purpose made poker handle, if it is the handle, and the shoulders are not particularly square and clean it almost looks like an old badly worn small back stile off a swinging bracket in a fireplace, and this was the section for the top journal There a various ways to make it, depending on tooling available, most have already been mentioned, To quote an earlier response, and no offence meant "If a nut is used you will end up forging the nut and making it's opening larger, thus preventing it from welding to the tenon" If this is occuring the parts to be united are not at welding temperature, Welding a nut on to form the ball is a well established and easy method and does work, Round up your bar either on anvil and file, or use top and bottom swages, Forge a short taper to fit a suitable nut, try the nut on so that the taper protrudes beyond the nut face. Reheat the tapered end and behind giving it a good soaking heat, pre heat the nut at the same time in the side of the fire, Place this preheated nut onto the taper and seat it using a bolster or monkey tool, make sure there is a protruding end or you will have a void in the end of your finished ball/cube/hex Quickly replace into fire and bring this assembly slowly up to welding heat, Slowly, allowing heat to soak right through both pieces then bring out and lightly tap to secure Then back into fire and repeat the soak up to welding heat, then you can consolidate your weld and form the ball either over the anvil edge/horn or a suitable swage Finish with hot rasp if required. No need to use flux, but if you feel you need to, flux when and how you feel appropriate Never seen that done John. I was only quoting what the old master taught me "was the correct way " many years ago :huh: You're proof to me that your never to young to learn something new in this bizz. I will say though that most early ball finials evidenced here in the U.S. were made as I described though most likely for the reason that they were working wrought iron. Unless they had very good quality iron shouldering at the juncture of ball and tenon would have been risky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Never seen that done John. I was only quoting what the old master taught me "was the correct way " many years ago :huh: You're proof to me that your never to young to learn something new in this bizz. I will say though that most early ball finials evidenced here in the U.S. were made as I described though most likely for the reason that they were working wrought iron. Unless they had very good quality iron shouldering at the juncture of ball and tenon would have been risky. Thats a problem a lot have, (me included) after many years of trying to do it the correct way/proper way/traditional way, as explained by a 'Master' a light will come on and you realise that it is not the only way. I think there are two takes on this situation, Firstly the older blacksmiths were not willing to freely pass on knowledge, and that was the way they had learnt their skills and the perpetuated this myth. Secondly as a newcomer with little or no skills or experience, anyone who does anything in advance of your skills you tend to think of as an expert who knows what they are doing, and if they tell you so, you tend to take that on board as gospel. It ain't so.!!!! Thats the problem with Ewe Tube some good, some excellent, some downright dangerous, the thing in common they share is the need to put their knowledge out there, and that's a good thing, the problem for the newcomer is sorting them out, but as you go you will learn to recognise the better contributors. Learn to question things, and you will get answers, then make your own mind up, and give it a go, as I said previously, 'So long as it is safely done and looks the part, objective achieved' There is nothing more irking to me than someone who insists that it must be done a particular way, especially without giving a qualified reason why, but you have probably already gathered that from some of my previous posts and encounters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divermike Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 agreed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Mullins Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I really like my swing arm fuller especially as I have the top arm bolted to the upright with a die spring holding the system in alignment----doesn't get out of alignment after hard usage and I can preset the arm at any position so it fits the workpiece with no loss of time. (I actually extended the arm slightly beyond the upright so I can tap it with the hammer to raise it and the spring will hold it in place.) Got any pics of your fuller? I can't quite visualize the spring adjustment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Hard to say, that image looks heavily photoshopped. If I were asked to replicate it I'd upset the end of a bar, forge the upset into the bluntest taper that I could, and insert into a clapper die under the power hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 John, great couple of posts. my only addition to forge welding a nut to a tenon would be to hacksaw thru one side of the nut thus the best of both worlds. I would without a doubt forgeweld a nut or wrap a collar to make this detail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno C. Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Maybe I'm just stoopid, but seems to me that you could just use a hammer. Have not done anything like that before, but have made round things and mushroom caps before. Seems to me that you can make a more rounded mushroom type cap with a hammer using small planishing blows. Could even start with a square end and round it off before/while making the rounded stem part. Proper angle with hammer on anvil, With much turning of the stock? *Trying to upload picture* Like I said, maybe I'm stoopid, and that could be an over simplification of technique. But if you take some stock and hit it while turning it, it will become round. Start with a square and round to your desire, and then make the rounded stem part, the round cap would/should end up roundish with just hammer blows. A Fuller or swage like tool would work I suppose. Dunno. I made that in the pic when I was first learning, and it was all done with hammer/anvil, no other tools, other than the purchased chain. I think if you have rounded stem with a square head on it, and then lift the work against the edge of the anvil to the proper angle while hitting it, you can attain the same result. More than one way to skin a cat. -Bruno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Bruno you can do it that way, and yes there are many ways to skin a cat. and no that's not a stoopid question, but a good observation. if you use a collar or a bolt, you are just using a hammer and anvil. I believe its quicker to forge weld on a collar than just do an upset in many cases. also look at the bottom of the ball shape. when you forge weld on a collar, that detail is done when the weld is complete. to get a ball say twice the size of the parent stock is an upsetting experience. :) there will be places where either way might be easier or quicker, so its best to be able to do it both ways. I've made a lot of grapes by upsetting! give it a try. make sure the collar is slightly smaller and the ends don't touch when wrapped around the parent stock or the weld is harder to get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.