Tell me again why you need a London pattern....

[VaughnT]

Anybody remember that video posted sometime last year..... showed a bunch of black guys working sheet metal into stove stands, using nail heads for rivets.  I'm really sure that the video wasn't in Africa.  Maybe South America somewhere.  Very third-world and I loved how they adapted what was available to make such sturdy ovens and such.  I've searched all over youtube, but can't find anything similar.

[yahoo2]

I sometimes wonder if the London pattern anvil is the swiss army knife of the blacksmith world, handy for little fiddly jobs to get you out of a tight spot but I wouldn't want to skin a cow with one! ( I meant the knife, BTW who would skin a cow with an anvil? )

 

I remember spending a day forging with a fellow years ago (when I was fit) he had the big coal forge ticking over preheating pieces, then gas forge on a trolley he would wheel close where we were working at the time. We would heat and forge two or three items at a time so that as soon as one piece got cold the next one was ready to go.

 

It wasn't till after I got home that I realised we never touched the anvil the whole day. We hammered and bent over jigs in the vice and the swage block and when we needed a breather we wheeled the forge across to the power hammer and big hydraulic press and worked a different job. Every two hours we stopped for 30 minutes for a cuppa and a snack and to set the jigs up for the next 2 hour run. The thing that stuck in my mind from that day is that nothing moved, everything we worked on took a solid blow or moved with very little effort. I see videos of guys chasing a piece rattling all over an anvil trying to remove a punch or a drift that is stuck and it looks like really hard work.

[VaughnT]

Yahoo, a lot of folks don't appreciate how much work they put in to chasing their work around.  Some are just mule-headed, doing the way they've been doing it for twenty years and not about to listen to some whippersnapper with newfangled ideas.  Some just haven't heard of a better way.

 

In my estimation, the london-pattern evolved out of a need for a product that could be marketed to all sorts of non-specialized smiths.  Today, thanks to cartoons, most westerners can't think of an anvil as anything but a london-pattern anvil.  Part of that is having such a soft life and not having to think outside the box, too.

[quint]

One thing I see is that everyone that seems to think the third world way of doing stuff is the bees knee yet just about everyone saying that is working on some nice sized london pattern anvil, and not because they cant find something else but because that is what they sought after. 

 

Not saying anything against anyone here and not wanting to start something, Ive just kind of realized that several of these threads seem to all end up having the same repeat pattern. I can understand that yes work can be done on all kinds of things from rocks and chunks of large steel from who knows what and I will admit some of those rock crusher things look pretty cool. However lots of the people recommending that or saying the london pattern isnt that useful yet they have 2 or 10 or 40 of them sitting around the shop. 

 

Kind of just an observation so dont break out the pitch forks or anything  :D

[Frosty]

I'm lighting a torch so I can find my pitchfork! Now just you relax and hang around Quint.

 

I believe the London pattern developed with the armor makers but it's just what I've heard.

 

Just because I CAN forge on any suitably hard ad heavy object doesn't mean I do it often. and Yeah I have three, the two I use and one Dad said was off a family farm.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Chinobi]

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I remember that too Vaughn, took a bit to find but worth it! Came from Haiti apparently.

[quint]

Thanks Frosty hopefully be around for a bit. Having too much fun trying to find time to beat on hot metal. 

 

I cant remember the dates for the estimates for the first london patterns but Imagine like anything else it was a progression of a style or whatever you wanna call it, and that it ended up catching on once it got to a certain point. I know I tend to group the london pattern and double horn germans and what not in similar groups but do understand they are different and alot of that was due to the influence of the people in a area and what they made or even more simply what they liked as a group. 

 

The london pattern was brought over to the US if I am not mistaken and once it was being produced there probably wasnt much reason to change it except for certain applications with the exception of the saw makers anvil. Lots of the specific applications were just slight modifications of the london pattern which makes sense since it is far easier to cast an extra hole in a anvil then redesign the entire thing then hope that people will catch on to the new look. We all know how people like change haha. 

 

Then with all our industrial revolutionism where we moved to large equipment that could do the work of the 4 or 5 guys pounding on a anvil together well that kind of made the progression of different anvil styles a dead end road. 

 

Ahh well just thoughts and being tired. 

[Dave Budd]

Including the anvils that I use for public demos and teaching, I've got a dozen anvils that I use regularly and only one is a London Pattern. The rest are mostly square or rectangular lumps set into wood (ok, two are actual stake anvils, but still a square lump).  As said above by others, I use the bick very occasionally but mostly I can bend or fuller just as easily on my square lump and it saves me moving forging station. I use the hardy hole for holding a cutter, but most other swages and tools I end up putting in the leg vice next to the forge instead because they all have different sized shanks. The ONLY thing that I use the London pattern for by preference is straightening blades and that is only because it happens to be long and flat still!

 

Before I bought it people would always come in to the workshop and immediately ask where my anvil was!  I think it mostly just looks the part and is a handy place to put my coffee cup :)

[Ratel10mm]

Dave, right now my anvil is a handy flat place to store my tool box. ;)

My first anvil was a short piece of rail track that I nailed down to a log about 8" round. That rests on the ground, supported by a handy rock wall.
As I understand it, the normal way of using rail track is to stand it upright as a post anvil, but this piece was neither long enough nor large enough in cross section for that. Anyway, it works quite well for small items.

[VaughnT]

Quint, I don't think it's odd that folks liking third-world examples of smithing should also have LP anvils - it's not like they're particularly hard to come by if you hang on a bit.  But honestly, most of the guys that appreciate third-worlds smiths have been in the game a long time (plenty of time to acquire tools) and can see how the videos demonstrate something that new guys need to learn.

 

How many times have we seen a starting smiths that say they can't "find an anvil anywhere", so they can't forge iron.  Or those guys that produce ugly, misshapen stuff "because I don't have better tools".  Third-world smiths can be a real source of inspiration, helping us all see things we've become blinded to.

 

In the video Chinobi re-posted (thanks, Hoss, great example of working metal with a small shop) you see a guy using a section of rail track to make a nice sheet metal stand.  It's the adaptation of tools and materials that's impressive, and often highlights just how narrow-minded first-world folks have become because a: they can buy mass-produced anything and b: they forgot how to adapt.  How many times have we seen a person fasten a section of rail to a stump and remove 50% of it's functionality as a tool, as shown in that video?  For that matter, why do first-worlders think that you need to stand up to be a smith?  

[ThomasPowers]

Actually I think PTREE's post anvil should properly be called a Louisville Slugger anvil...

[Eddie Mullins]

I also like watching what the 3rd world smiths are using, and what they are capable of producing. I should have saved the link, but recently watched a video taken in the Philippines of smiths forging Bolos. They were using something resembling a cannon barrel, not real sure what it was, certainly not what we typically consider an anvil, but obviously very effective for them. 

 

I think the London pattern offers some versatility and convenience but certainly not necessity. I like the Swiss Army knife analogy. In some respects I think its marketing/perception as much as anything. I also think that there is a little pride and nostalgia involved. I'll admit I like owning a LP anvil not just becuase its functional but its also what I identify with the early American Blacksmith. It kind of gives me that since of history and connection. That said my next anvil will be a striking anvil.

[the iron dwarf]

I blame Wiley Coyote for a lot of it,

the few times I have been to an event and several people have wanted to use an anvil I have just started using something different to show it can be done

[Bg Ben]

It took me over a decade of working with metal before getting an anvil. The first "anvil" I bought was from an auction after searching a year and backing out of bidding at several other auctions. The "anvil" was almost a cube of cast iron with a handle on one side and stamped "fairbanks 50lbs". I only knew that it had square edges that I could bend a piece of metal over and much less expensive than real ambulances were going for. Turns out that it was a weight from farm scale(not the best composition of metal for forging but would work). As I was standing in line to pay for it the guy behind me in line asked what I planned to do with it and told me what it was. After telling him the plan it turns out he collects anvils, had over 70 of them and bought three of them at the same auction before I had arrived. Guess he felt bad after admitting he doesn't even plan on doing any forging and he agreed to sell me the oldest one (pre-civil war) which was of course badly worn and a large chunk broken off of the center of one edge. I was thrilled I went home with 2 "anvils". For all the years before that I had gotten by with just my trusty vise and scraps of what ever I could find.

[quint]

If you dont mind me asking what were you making Ben. Just curious. Also what made you purchase a Yost anvil. Saw your other post about that. Good looking anvil by the way. 

[Bg Ben]

I make metal sculptures and artwork. Also have made o lot of special tools for specific applications working as a mechanic by trade instead of ordering expensive factory tools that rarely get used and even fabricate parts on some repairs. The Yost anvil found me basically. Word got around that I was looking and I was told it was over 200lbs. (165 on the bathroom scale) and in need of a good home that would actually use it. Awesome gift! The small, old, unmarked anvil(70lbs-ish)that is all beat up has much less ring to it and probably better rebound as well.

[Judson Yaggy]

It's not the shape of the anvil that makes a good smith.  It's working 6 or 7 days a week for 20 or 30 years on the same lump of iron.  And if you are working by hand for a lifetime a few, subtle, minor, design improvements can cumulatively add up to massive labor savings after a few hunderd thousand hammer blows.  Most working smiths in history that were given the chance to get an anvil with a horn and/or other features did so if they could afford it.  

 

The guys in the youtube vids that are using small block or found scrap anvils are doing so because they are either highly specialized (cutlers or tool smiths) or are darn near survival wages, or both.  They are as skilled as they are not because of their anvils but despite them.  Hammering all day most every day of your life will get you mad skills, but I bet that if those guys knew how to use a horn and hardie tools to maximum potential they would use a London pattern if they could aford one.  

[ptree]

I use several London pattern anvils, as well as several expedient anvils. The big post anvils work well for our sledging demo's as they allow lots of folks up close and personal. Nothing in the way, they are the right height and weight and material.

 

I also use a hardened die insert from the Vogt Forge shop. 86# of nicely heat treated H-13 I got for $0.06/# many years ago. Used it to forge silver and gold on before I had any other anvil. Now set in the ground and a floor anvil.

 

And no ThomasP, the post anvil is not a Louisville slugger, they are wood or maybe aluiminum. This is a Tube Turns stenciled, Sypris Technologies sledging anvil:) I watched that one get forged in a 10" upsetter, an impressive thing to see. Had a fail to fill on an edge of the flange and it was then scrapped. Bought a number and took them to Quad State. both the 454# and the 250 or so # versions and no one saw in them enough value to spend $50 0r $75 for that much well shaped 4140. That would have been 2005

[ThomasPowers]

Ptree; I remember them there; IIRC I had already sourced some 5.25" 4340 for my treadle hammer build or I might have been tempted...

[ptree]

Yep, I seem to remember you foundling them:)  I bought them think ready made anvil and base for JYhammer. One guy contacted me later and stopped by for two. Tom clark got one.

[SReynolds]

To answer the question, I operate a historical blacksmith shop. Thus I must use the traditional London style anvil.

[ThomasPowers]

While I do historical blacksmithing demos and so CAN'T use a london pattern anvil as they are only accurate for about 10% of blacksmithing history.

[John McPherson]

....and 10% of the human population during that time.