Liability waiver language

[divermike]

Gentlemen and Ladies,

 

I am almost ready to start my first classes in the new building, I have always taught under someone else's flag, but now it is going to be MINE...ALL MINE BWAHAHAAH, URK COUGH HACK.. anyway I need some waiver language for the signoff form, and as I was cogitating on it, I had to palm slap my forehead, you guys must have it allready!! Would any of you instructors take the time to message me with your language please?? The more the better, I wrote my contract as a home inspector by starting with a great base contract and adding as I saw fit, problem is, I don't have any base this time, but some of you do! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, take the time and get it to me. I have 4 students ready to go when everything is set, and only the insurance and waiver are waiting, the insurance is just about done.

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Mike, For sure you would hear from me This is from my cell patience If I were yoy I would keep it real simple with a sign up sheet when you walk into your forge that states that you are held not responsible for any accidents .. Another thing I would do is form a LLC for your school that keeps YOU out of the liability. Any questions you have my number Jim

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning,

 

Liability concerns are best answered by a liar in your area, that is current on the law.

 

Any Waiver can be destroyed by any competant Liar. The term is "Due Diligence".

 

Neil

[ianinsa]

Be weary when approaching those guys remember 99.9% of them give the rest a bad name. Good advise none the less. On both matters.

 

Ian

[petere76]

Mike,

Assuming you don't want to buy liability, injury, etc insurance, look at the wording on what is called a "hold harmless agreement". Essentially, this is a waver of responsibility for you the operator of the facility agreed to (signed) by students, vendors or visitors. Those signing agree not to pursue any action against the operator of the facility because of injury to that individual because they were on the premises. Also, you state law will stipulate some of what us deemed the responsibility of the operator. If the building us not inspected and it collapses the owner is still responsible in some but not all states. Do the research for where you live.

Peter

[Ted T]

Liability weaver of third party and Blacksmithing
 

To start with, my response in no way suggests that I am providing you with legal advice.
I am not an attorney. I am sharing with you information that has been brought to my attention from my observations while in the business.

I write this only as a WARNING from a layman’s point of view and experience, I found out that nothing is etched in stone when it comes to tort liability.
Wisdom says to consult with an attorney so they can write up something that is defendable by them in a court of law; and not just something that sounds good just because “Joe” (your friend) does it in his unchallenged way.

So make sure what you do is reasonable and sound.
 

If you don’t consult with an attorney, then be ready and willing to pay a big price of you actions if what “Joe” (or I have suggested in this post) told you to do; turns out to be incorrect information about how he thought the law will deal with your situation.
 

Talk to your attorney first before you act. Not after you have been notified of a civil action against you.

There is a concept that says that you cannot sign the THIRD party rights away.  That could be the insurance carriers, relative or guardian.

 

By having a person signing a waiver, you not only indicate that you read the contents, but that you agree with the provisions of that document. But you cannot agree in the place of a third party.
There are other mitigating circumstances that come into play such as how the document was written up, confirmed, and much more.

You need an Attorney that has agreed that they could defend the contents of the document.

A study of the subject of tort liability and all of its ramifications will quickly give you an understanding of why we have attorneys and courts. Nothing is final until the judge says it is final.

Why take a chance by not doing it correctly?
 

Third party subrogation.
If you have been injured in an accident that has resulted in damages, at some point you will undoubtedly hear the term "subrogation." Literally, subrogation means one person or party stands in the place of another.
 

Subrogation issues surface when a person has been injured and someone other than the person or party at fault pays for all or some of the damages resulting from the injury.

By definition, a subrogation claim allows the innocent paying party, also known as a "collateral source," to stand in the shoes of the injured party.

My position about this matter is one of using caution and common sense.

Unless you are set up with your insurance carrier specifically to cover your activities of teaching blacksmithing, I would avoid it like the plague.
We are all playing in the legal play ground like it or not.

The attorneys are the monitors and the courts are the principal.

 

That is just my opinion; please check with your attorney!
 

[Rich Hale]

When someone gets hurt and they have insurance to cover all of their bills...many times that insurance will require them to sue the property owners where the injury happened....Whether the injured party wants to or not....Follow the money.....If someone else pays they do not have to!

[tzonoqua]

I really think you need to get solid legal advice. I know here in the UK a waiver is not really worth the paper it's written on. If you are negligent, then you are at fault, and will be found so, despite whether there has been a piece of paper signed or not if you have not fulfilled statutory H&S requirements.  Also perhaps your insurance company may have requirements to be filled with regards to this kind of paperwork?  No sense rushing into anything.

[Steve Sells]

When I was running a 5 day a week martial arts school, with more 20 or so students on the mats for each class,  I had a waiver that covered most anything, from my lawyer.  But I was also informed that in reality, nothing will remove liability from my actions.  A waiver may be used to reduce some of the limits of that liability by proving they were informed there are risks involved, but not much more.  Like anything involving legal things, its up to the mood of the enforcing body (in this case judge and jury)

 

It does not remove anyones rights to be safe from injury.  No contract can give up any constitutional rights, ( life, liberty and freedom from harm is part of those rights) no matter how good that contract was written to say other.   Please consult an attorney.

[John McPherson]

PM sent. For what it is worth.

[divermike]

I really love the diversity this group represents. I have consulted my insurance carrier, he is totally on board, next is the attorney, in all businesses it is good to have a "first line of defense". That is what the waiver essentially constitutes. I have spent many hours in contract and legal classes, so this is not new to me, I just know that as I know about some things, the business side of blacksmithing is among the least, thank you all, keep it coming!

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Mike,

 

Toss this around...

 

Form a LLC.....  (1)     capitalize it with a list of aprox 500.00 in equipment ..  A few forges and hammers will do...

And a DBA

                          (2)       Establish a lease agreement between you personally and the LLC for the building and the balance of the equipment. Make a list

 

                          (3)      Route all funds from the students through the LLC 

                          

                          (4)     Write yourself a check once a month from the LLC   

                          

                          (5)     Write a release waver for the LLC  for all students to sign...

                         

 

                Check this out with your attorney account and insurance people.   

                Its is a bit of paperwork but it could save your but .. 

 

Just some advise from a Old guy that still has a few companies in motion...  

 

 

Forge on and make beautiful things..   When can I take a class????

 

Jim

[Jacob Nothstine]

I teach photography classes outdoors. I run most of my classes with local City's or colleges and have them cover the insurance for the classes. Might be something to look into it's also a good way to get more students. A lot of places will run classes and give you most of the money, they just want different classes to offer people. LLC is a good way to go. 

[DSW]

I'll agree if you haven't looked at running this as a "business" at least for tax purposes, if not for liability protection, you really should talk to your accountant. There is a vast array of reasonable write offs you can use. The new shop alone is one huge write off that you can stretch out over time and help reduce your tax burden in other areas, such as if you have a FT job working elsewhere. A good accountant finds enough savings to cover himself and save you money.

[notownkid]

Rule of Thumb, you're offering a service on your property, someone gets hurt, You are going to be Sued.  That is regardless of what people sign.  The old Lawyer saying "You Knew or  Should Have Known X might happen".  Best Lawyer Wins, You lose regardless by having fees and a bad press event. 

[WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith]

Attached is an article I wrote for the Alex Bealer Blacksmith Association and have provided to many other blacksmithing associations.  I flatly refuse to sign any "Release" that says that I will release any and every body that might maybe happen.  Most are so open ended that there is no time frame and if you sign the "Release" and then are on the way home and someone who had attended the function runs into your car you have "Released" him.  As was said before, these "Releases" probably won't hold water but you can bet that if you get injured and have to make a claim the defending attorney, or insurance company is going to raise that defense and even if you win you are going to have the trouble and expense of opposing that defense.

 

Persons using these over reaching "Releases" may, in the end, find themselves in the position of being hit with additional damages for causing undue trouble and stress to the plaintiff for the unconscionable "Release".

 

When I attend a function that includes these over reaching clauses I just mark out what I don't agree to.  I have never been turned away.

 

Once when I was setting up at a conference one of the sponsors had been drinking and was spinning donuts on the pavement and over onto the grass around and around another camper's trailer.  I was about 100' away, standing watching all of this and trying to figure out what to do if he lost control of his pick-up.  Then I thought, "And they want me to sign a release saying that if he lost control and ran over me I would not try to collect for my damages?" 

 

BTW, I am a retired attorney.

WARNING.pdf