IronDan89 Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Hello everyone! First things first! My name Is Danny and I'm hailing from the lovely city of Manchester In the UK. So, lets get to the topic at hand: *Warning incoming essay* A close friend of mine Is an ameture blacksmith and after numerous discussions over the past few months he has been indulging me picking his brain about blacksmithing. Recently I have become interested, well, enthralled actually with the idea of blacksmithing. i'm a joiner by trade and I have always been proud of making things by hand. I have done everything from fit kitchens to help build a local indoor air rifle range owned by a friend of mine. The thing Is -and here's the kicker- there are NO courses/forms of introduction about blacksmithing In Manchester. (At least what I can find.) So I have signed up here hoping to broaden my horizons on some aspects of blacksmithing from you knowledgeable chaps! So some key points I would like to learn about are (In no particular order): What do you need to get started and how much does It cost? What should you try your hand at making first off to learn the basic techniques? Does anyone know of any Manchester based courses/places I could go down and just have a look first hand. Final one (for now haha.) What kind of money can a blacksmith earn (on a self employed basis.) This Is something you might find strange. But I'm actually at university studying Human Biology and Infectious Diseases. So It may seem like one xxxx of a 180 but I suppose at 24, I'm still trying to find myself and my interests. Even If I don't take It up as a full time job even as a hobby or part time job I would love to be able to call myself even an ameture blacksmith! I have found myself attracted to the forging of anything really, specifically blades , I have seen some truly beautiful work, not just In the area of blades mind you, but particularly using Damascus smithing. Now obviously you can't just think "I want to be a blacksmith lets start the process of folding numerous sheets of metal and create a blade." Right from the get go. But that Is something that particularly catches my eye. I will leave the post at that length for now as I'm sure I've created a few bloodshot eyes from reading that much! Haha! Thank you very much In advance for your input and I apologize for any further questions you may have to endure haha! All the best from me! -IronDan89 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 So It may seem like one xxxx of a 180 IForgeIron is a family forum. Cussing is not allowed. Please read the terms of service. What do you need to get started and how much does It cost? What should you try your hand at making first off to learn the basic techniques? Does anyone know of any Manchester based courses/places I could go down and just have a look first hand. Final one (for now haha.) What kind of money can a blacksmith earn (on a self employed basis.) You need a fire, something to beat on, and something to beat with. Total cost can be under $20 USD or less. Did you look at the IForgeIron site at all before posting your question? *Did you look under Blacksmithing where the very first first thread is > What do you need to get started in Blacksmithing? *Did you look under Blacksmithing > Finding a Blacksmithing Group near you * Did you you look under Blacksmithing > Forges > solid fuel forges you will find Forges and Fires, and the 55 Forge Blueprints. I have found myself attracted to the forging of anything really, specifically blades , Like medicine, you do not start by doing brain surgery with a jack hammer. You first study the anatomy of the subject that needs brain surgery to find out where the brain is located and other general and specific information. Same with blacksmithing, you first learn about how the metal moves under the hammer, what metal to use, and other general and specific information before starting a much more advanced specialty of the craft such as bladesmithing. Did you look at the IForgeIron site and find the knife section, or read the information on the knife making classes? We suggest that you pack a lunch and a cold drink and spend some time reading IForgeIron.com as most of your questions are already discussed and answered. Once you have some base knowledge we suggest that you contact a local group in the United Kingdom such as Baba - British Artist Blacksmiths Association and the Blacksmiths Guild. They can jump start your blacksmithing, and point you toward classes that you can take. You are fortunate as you can get a Blacksmithing Certification from the UK and actually become a MASTER Blacksmith. YOU are the driving force for YOUR becoming a blacksmith. It requires reading, research, taking that information to the forge to learn what works and where you need more information, and then doing more reading and research. Forge time is most important. Practice the craft and then practice some more. There are many more topics I could recommend, but until you have read those suggested above, and formed a base knowledge to build upon,,,,,, there is little use building a roof for a house which has no foundation. All the best. I am sure others will post their thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 I'll tackle the "can you make a living at it?" If you think you want to make a living at it, no. I know quite a few smiths, some are very good. Out of that bunch only one does it full time. After a time, if one gets good enough, one might make a living at it. Most of us just do it because we love taking a piece of raw material and making something useful or beautiful (or for a select few, both). For some of us, it is a link to the past. I'd think for most who have been at it for more than a few years, it's a passion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postleg Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Welcome to the addiction. You have found an great source of info on this forum. At the top of the page there is a post all about getting started. The first thing you need is the desire and drive. The next is something to beat on something to heat your steel and something to hit it with. The rest is a lot of practice in the doing the basics you can learn here. Check out the blue print section it's loaded with info and starting projects. Youtube is another good source of videos showing how to make different types of things start to finish. Also just posting your location here you may find there are more smiths in our area that you have never heard of. Even in a lot of the USA there are not a lot of black smithing schools. I did find a 2 day 16 hr course at a local community college. It was day of learning basics and making a few simple things. Then a little more of that the second day then finished off using what you learned to make something of your own. Since then I've learned by using this forum, youtube and just doing. Don't be afraid to try to make things you see and like. Just take some time and think it out. Just think of it as clay that is very hot. I've seen a lot of people use clay first get it to the size of material your planning on using. Then work it on your anvil with a hammer and see how you to have to hit it to get the shape or form you want. Then when you have the process worked out in clay try it on steel. If you were closer you could come over and I would be happy to help you out. Sounds like your friend could also be a great asset. There is a lot of knowledge on this forum but asking how do I get started is one of the most asked questions. That is why there are post at the top of the page continually answering the same question tends to bother some folks on this forum. So it is best to read the info already posted then when you get stuck on a particular problem ask a way people are more then willing to offer suggestions and advice freely. I read and check this forum several times a day and have noticed new bees are sometimes not treated like I would like to be treated and I never see another post from them. Just remember there are a lot of people here willing to help. If you get a response to your question. Try contacting them trough their profile page by clicking on their picture and then you can be in contact with them and get the info your looking for without feeling like your bothering someone. Keep the desire drive and fire burning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDan89 Posted September 14, 2013 Author Share Posted September 14, 2013 Sorry for the cussing wont happen again! I have done a lot of research on the subject, however I find coming to a place like this would benefit more than browsing sporadic websites. I wasn't planning to start with blade smithing as i stated In the post. But thank you for reinforcing that. Sometimes It Is tempting to run before you can walk. With the forums being such large places I thought It might be handy to pose the questions first to get peoples opinions. As In my studies, you have to get more than one set of opinions! I apologize If this post seems like a waste of time that wasn't the intention. -IronDan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan C Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Look for a local ABANA group, work on the basics and visit the library to see what books they have and spend a lot of time reading what's on this site. Then spend more time applying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan C Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Ugh, double post. Book called backyard blacksmith is real good. Reading right now Wayne Goddard $50 knife shop, you want learn the basics first though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postleg Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Your question is not a waste of time. It may seem that way at times but there are lot of folks here willing to help. Don't get discouraged hang in there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New2Smithn Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Hello IronDan89 I am also very new to Blacksmithing,just got started getting everthing together back around January or so of this year and cuaght the bug pretty hard pretty much eat sleep and think Blacksmithing even when i cant be at the forge im in deep thought of how bad i want to be there! Lol...anyway do just as Glenn says and read read and read some more there hasnt been to much info j havent been able to find here ob the forum especially on the basics also U Tube is full of info if you need to see things in action buy yourself a few books The Backyard Blacksmith is a really good read with plenty if info to get you started i would suggest once you have a way to heat your steel to concentrate alot on getting a good fire built and tending that fire especially if its solid fuel that aline will be quite a chore till you have the hang of it also back to the book...you can carry that book out to your smithy open it up on a table close by you light a fire in the forge and start smithing every time you run into something basic you arent sure of while forgeing,set the iron to the side reference the book for an answer to your question reheat and start to beat again trust me if you will get ou there and just beat your brains out both mentally and fisically you will soon start to see your self makeing some advancements anyway this is my first time posting anything really and hope that this long drawn out speech is helpfull to you in some kind of way. Hope it all works out for you! Have a good one and Forge On! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Glenn has answered the same questions a few thousand times, he has also put a lot of time and money into setting up this sight so the answers to your questions are here and recorded for posterity. So, read, ask read some more, try, show us the results and ask again, read some more and try again... There are smiths here that make their living smithing, some that teach the art, some that just love to shape hot steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Welcome aboard Dan, glad to have you. Studying infectious disease eh? Be aware, blacksmithing is highly addictive, incurable, no hope for you once you take up the hammer. Ain't it cool? <grin> Making a living smithing is so full of variables there's no telling; like most everything about the craft, it's up to you. It's doable though but probably not a very romantic pursuit. I know a couple guys who make a living at the anvil but most of their income comes from shoeing horses. Of course if picking manure out of a hoof while 1,000 lb. horse leans on you sounds romantic, you're golden. <grin> Don't sweat it, we can get grumpy and sometimes it comes out when we get asked the same question for the thousandth time that month. Happens all the time, sometimes it just gets to us. Still, start reading sections in the forum, the information there is epoc and once you start getting a handle on things you can ask good questions and understand the answers. Believe me, we LOVE good questions. Of course for every two smiths who answers you'll get at least three answers but that's one of the magic bits of smithing. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 every one dosnt likehaving a 1000# animal lean on you?! I must be crazy or something... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Hello everyone! ..... My name Is Danny and I'm hailing from the lovely city of Manchester In the UK. ....... What do you need to get started and how much does It cost? What should you try your hand at making first off to learn the basic techniques? Does anyone know of any Manchester based courses/places I could go down and just have a look first hand. Final one (for now haha.) What kind of money can a blacksmith earn (on a self employed basis.) Welcome Danny, it sounds like you have a good opportunity in having a friend in the hobby. Maybe he can spend some time getting you started by showing you the basics. Ask two people about how to get started and how much it costs to get started and you are likely to get two answers. Minimally a camp fire, a rock as a hammer and a larger rock as an anvil, and some scrap iron is all you need to get started, but the better your tools the less likely you are to get frustrated and give up. My suggestion is if possible to take a course or two in order to get a jump start on knowledge. Taking a course and/or using other folk's equipment also helps to get a feel of what minimal equipment best meets your needs. You might try talking to the administrators where you are studying to find out if they have an art or trades department that teaches blacksmithing or has blacksmithing equipment. You might also ask your blacksmith friend how he got started. You also might contact the British Artist Blacksmith Association http://www.baba.org.uk/Home There is a lot of free information on the Internet both on this site and elsewhere, but that said, I believe there is no substitute for hands-on assistance from someone with experience, especially with the opportunity to get the feel of some decent equipment. I have seen a lot of people come and go from blacksmithing. Getting a good start increases your chances of sticking with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Now obviously you can't just think "I want to be a blacksmith lets start the process of folding numerous sheets of metal and create a blade." Right from the get go. You don't know how refreshing it is to hear a beginner say that! Not much I can add, especially for your side of the pond, but I will wish you the best in your endeavors. There are a lot of very good smiths in Great Britain, and the tradition of ironwork is millennia old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDan89 Posted September 14, 2013 Author Share Posted September 14, 2013 Wow thank you all for such speedy and friendly replies! Don't worry I understand how annoying It can be to have the same questions asked to you. I used to manage two coffee shops and I'd get five people a day coming In and asking "Do you do cappuccinos?" Needless to say It got tiresome haha. Only problem Is my friend who Is In the trade also lives down south haha. He may be moving up here In a couple of months. But that's beside the point. So I had a look around the forges and shops part and I couldn't find quite what I was after, so lets hope I don't anger anyone this time. Basically If I'm going to make my own little forge, what kind of space do you need. As my options at the moment are Garage or build a shed. So if anyone has a forge In a shed or just a stand alone forge. How much space are we talking? Also my friend recommended "Forging your way to perfection" by Jim Hrisoulas. Has anyone read that? I'm on amazon as we speak looking for those books people have suggested! Also I have read all the above posts I just can't quite figure out how to quote. So I'm not Ignoring any of this wonderful advice haha. Its'a also good to see a fellow noobie! I think blacksmithing Is something that needs to be kept alive. I mean Joiners (including me) plasterers, brick layers are a dime a dozen over here. But blacksmiths, well, that's a different story. In a way the industrial revolution both killed blacksmithing but also breathed new life into It. It's just harder to make a living out of It nowadays which Is a shame. Keep "forging" on everyone! *grin* -IronDan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 There is a QUOTE button bottom right of the post you want to quote. Click and it will copy the entire text of that post. You will need to delete the material that does not apply, keeping the text you want to reverence. The rest is just a reply, as normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 .... Basically If I'm going to make my own little forge, what kind of space do you need. As my options at the moment are Garage or build a shed. So if anyone has a forge In a shed or just a stand alone forge. How much space are we talking? Also my friend recommended "Forging your way to perfection" by Jim Hrisoulas. Has anyone read that? I'm on amazon as we speak looking for those books people have suggested!.....-IronDan As with most questions, the answer to "how much space you need", is .....it depends. It depends on what you plan on making and what tools you plan on using. And again if you ask 12 smiths, you are likely to get at least 12 different answers, because they have differences in what they are making and what tools they feel they need. And again, you best bet might be to visit the shops of other folks and see what you feel would work best for you. All of Dr. Jim's books are great. You might wish to start with a beginner's book first, practive making a couple of hundred "S hooks" to practice the basic skills first. .... just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDan89 Posted September 14, 2013 Author Share Posted September 14, 2013 Thanks very much David. I suppose I should rephrase It. Is there a minimum amount of space? I mean I would have to build my own forge. Maybe find some kind of anvil. Is there a minimum amount of space you need? Also can you suggest any good beginners books? Thanks! -IronDan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postleg Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 I would say that no matter how much space you have it will always fill up and be to small. I try to mount as much of may stuff on wheels because some tools you won't use a lot. My propane forge is on wheels so I can move it around in or out side, anvils I can move with 2 wheeled cart. In the summer I run the forge outside. In the winter it's on the unheated side of my shop. It's good to keep things close the time moving from one tool to another is time wasted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Dan: Again you're looking for specifics from wildly variable circumstances. for instance, Were I making surgical tools my forge wouldn't need to be much larger than a small flower pot, less than twice as wide as a tea cup and about as deep. Were I making fences and gates it'd need to be substantially larger, say a 12"x24" sq. pot in a 3'x4' sq table. So, one variable YOU must quantify is the scale you wish to work. Remember you're starting out so you do NOT need a large forge but I certainly wouldn't make it tiny. A small forge table is a good thing too, the fire pot sets off center and the table allows you to lay stock, tools and keep coal at the fire without it being IN the fire. That is of course assuming you wish to use coal or coke. How much room you need is the smithy is another variable YOU have to answer for your purposes. I've known guys who were successful bladesmiths ad lived in a condo several floors up. Kept their tools in a closet and forged on the balcony. As a general rule of thumb look to kitchen work space design. As a rule one pace betweeen major tools is good, 6' between forge & anvil & bench & vise laid out i a general triangle. The central tool depending on what and how you're doing is the anvil or forge but it may be the bench or vise. It just depends and there's no way you can know just what you'll need till you've been at it a while. Bear in mind I'm a propane forge guy so I don't have to worry about smoke removal, though CO and other fumes are a factor. The only piece of equipment I don't move is the power hammer and It's NOT bolted down. I rearrange things as I need but I have plenty or room (if I cleaned it up more<grin>) and a concrete floor. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDan89 Posted September 14, 2013 Author Share Posted September 14, 2013 Cheers Frosty and postleg. Well I would have enough space In the garage. But the problem for that Is ventilation. Granted there Is a big door, but that wouldn't quite cut It. So It seems the more viable option would be to use a propane forge like yourself Frosty. Now I had a look In the forges part of the forum and when It comes to making your own propane forge there seems to be a certain amount of welding Involved and I have never touched one In my life. So It seems I may have to buy one. Anyone had any experience making rings? (The finger kind) Saw some Damascus ones for sale today while browsing the web and they looked really quite nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 I have made some pattern welded rings,,,would never be able to type all the how to in here,,,nor would it be a beginners project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Mig welding doesn't take a lot to learn the basics. Average student where I help teach can get it down in less than 48 hours of class time with instruction. They could be at the point of putting together a functional gas forge a lot sooner. It wouldn't be pretty, but it would stay together. Something small like rings could use a small 1-2 burner gas forge. One of the coffee can or freon cylinder forges would allow you to work small steel and such. That said I've got almost as much into building my own gas forge as I would if I'd just gone out and bought one in the 1st place. That doesn't include all my tooling like my welders either. My coal forge on the other hand was much less expensive. I had almost all the materials saved up well in advance including a small blower. I think in total I have less than $30 in it in the original form. The welder ( bought new) to assemble it would have pushed the cost to about equal to a commercially bought one however. Used, the welder might have added $50-150 depending on how good I was at locating a used stick welder. You might think about taking a night welding class at a local tech school. Most instructors are more than willing to allow students to work on their own projects within reason, once they have the basics down. Learning the basics of mig or stick also wouldn't hurt in this hobby. Classes also usually go over the basics of Oxy fuel cutting and heating and that's another useful "tool" to know working with metal. Around me a class breaks down to about $11-15 per hour of class time. When you sit down and add up what the materials, machine, electric, rod/wire, gas etc, not to mention the instruction would cost you, a class is stupid cheap. Given a choice, I'd suggest learning mig 1st as it's usually the easiest for guys to pick up on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 A very servicible solid fuel forge can be built with no welding, and very little to no cash outlay. Basically a 8" deap and wide hole with a 3/4" to one inch pipe sticking into the side an inch or so of the bottom. One can also build it as a trench, say two walls, 6-8" apart, 10-12" long and about 8" high. With a hole in the middle of one wall about an inch of the bottom. You can even leave of one wall and just bank the fuel against it. Ad something to move air, say a hair drier with the hating eliment unplugged. Forges have been made of dirt and stone a long time befor cast or welded fire pots. It's a cheep, dirty way to get started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 All the above is good advice, yet you live in a part of the world where you can get hurt falling over all the blacksmithing kit just lying around and cluttering up scrapyards,2nd hand merchants, reclamation yards and toc H shops etc. Anvils are abundant and car boot sales have bucket fulls of hammers going cheap. Seriously You don't need much kit and it need'nt cost much.(to start that is) once the bug bites it becomes a different kettle of fish. You should be able to find an old forge quite easy and depending on where you set up you might be able to use coal(bear in mind that Mr. Plod generally lacks a sence of humour whera & when you bother the neighbours) otherwise you need to use charcoal(think bricketts at B&Q). My personal experience with English smiths has been, keen to share, knowledgable and incredibly nice chaps (sorry Beth) people. Well Dan " May the forge be with you" :D good joss on your quest. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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