Time to build a new forging press...

[monstermetal]

Well a local blacksmith wants to buy my shop built forging press so I decided to let him have it and build a new one.      I am kind of torn because I have some big stuff to build a press but not sure if big is the right thing.   I have a 30 hp 19 GPM self contained pump and a nice heavy 8" cylinder.  That would give me about 60 ton squeeze with a 90 IMP extend and 114 IPM retract.    I think more ideal would be a 6" cylinder which would give me a bout 160 IMP with this pump or a 5" which would give me 222 IMP and 25 ton.

 

I have found that speed is much more important than tonnage when punching and forging and really if the thing is rigid and fast you can get a lot of work done with 20-25 ton.    If your upsetting large stuff you do need tonnage but I have the 210 ton Williams-White  for that kind of work.

 

The other option is to try and buy components,  I have made the mistake in the past of trying to do things on the cheap with what I had and not being happy with the less than ideal results.   The pump I have is pretty ideal for a small forging press at a fixed 19 GPM @ 2500 PSI but its a huge 60 gal tank and a 30 HP motor.  The plus's are its ready to go and I have little money in it, the cons are it takes up lots of floor space and power.  The cylinder I have is a real nice heavy unit with like a 5" rod and good mounting options but 8" I think might be too slow.     I wish it was a 6" and I would just go for it.    I do have a 6" but its like 40" of stroke.

 

 

 

I also am up in the air over a H frame or C frame.   I really liked the openness of the C frame I built last time but it was not as rigid as I would have liked.   I think a H would be easier to build good and solid but you loose some ability by having to pass the work though the machine.   One of the jobs I did required tuning some 2" scrolls (made from 2" solid square) a job that you couldn't have done on a H frame machine

 

If I go for the C frame I have some 18" wide 2 3/4" thick plate that I figured I could use for the frame and use a weldment to build the cylinder support and table....

[dablacksmith]

larry sounds like you need to find a cylinder .... and with the plate i would go ahead and make the c frame ... if you need a more stable platform of the h frame then you can use the bigger press...you can pickup a cylender for around 600.00 from surplus center or ck the local area for sumthing used... good luck!!!

[Judson Yaggy]

Make a C frame but have some attachment points on the open side for some tie rods like you see on some punch presses.  Pull the rods out when they get in the way.  

[Dillon Sculpture]

Sounds like fun... Unless you have a hoist I would think bending would be better suited on a horizontal and forging to a vertical press. Would a C or H that big be better suited to turn? I guess you want it to do both B) I always liked the bottom mounted cylinder with side post pulling down...

[doc]

Larry ,

 I wouldn't go much over the 25 ton if I were building the C frame. Maybe 30 tons? I built a 25 ton C frame from 1 1/4" plate and it flexes a considerable amount. Hasn't been a problem but can be disconcerting when on certain jobs you notice how much it moves :wacko:

[Guest Low-Alloy]

Hello Larry,

You still have that 30 ton friction/fly press that you had for sale a while back? How about using that? Other than work envelope (no C-frame) I would think friction presses are the bees-knees for forging. Of course as a professional blacksmith YMMV. I would like to hear your thoughts in regard to hydraulic vs friction press for blacksmith work?

Cheers

[monstermetal]

Well I would agree that a friction screw press really is the thing to have.  The issue is that to do the work of a 30 ton hydraulic press you need a 100 ton Screw press.    Now if I could find a 100-150 ton friction screw press I could buy reasonable I think Id jump on it but I dont think it would completely replace a hydraulic press either.

 

And the 30 ton machine is still sitting in my yard but Brent Bailey bought it.

 

My current C frame is 40 ton and built on a 18" X 76 lb I beam and it will flex enough to cause significant die misalignment and the working depth is only about 8"    

[Sask Mark]

Did Grant's screw press go to Kayne's when they purchased OCP?

[Richard Furrer]

I'm building a few presses as well.

I bought one of these cylinders:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005CWJZZC/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_10?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

But the price at the time was $360 or so..the day after I bought the price jumped $225.

 

I'd like a 200-300 ton friction screw, but they seem oddly expensive at that range and larger.

Ric

[ianinsa]

I have an H-frame with 2 moveable cylinders ie. 1 is put to the side while the other is used, so one heavy/ strong/ slow the other lighter/ faster the moving from side to centre is a bit of a mission but it works, the controls are dual so no hydraulic change over just use the corect control!

I supose if you use quick couplers the options are infinite as you can use your forklift to "swap" cylinders.use what you have now, useins a "common top plate" configuration and change if needs be!

[HWHII]

I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

[monstermetal]

well it will be a bit,  I just got a big job that will keep me busy for the next 6 weeks....   I am leaning towards building something with what I have and seeing how it works out...

[JNewman]

While fast and powerful are both good things.  As a bending press slower and less powerful are sometimes as important. 

 

My horizontal bender is adjustable for speed and I will slow it right down for one offs and setting up the limit switches.  It has electrically operated  valves so they  are either open or closed a manual valve does allow feathering for sneaking up on a bend.

 

I have a press that is only 8-10ton but is fast.   I do hot bending jobs in it but  if it had high tonnage after the bending was done it might start forging the bar.  The bending dies are forged and sometimes fabricated swages and don't bottom out perfectly and would have to be built much heavier if they were used on a 100 ton press.  I wish my horizontal press had easily adjustable pressure and it is something I may add in the future.  I have to be careful when it bottoms out as it will crush stock and I don't like the way it bends the pins (not permanently)   The adjustable pressure is something the newer versions of my press has.

 

For repetitive work limit switches are really useful and allow you to use  high speed all the way and means your tooling can be much simpler as you don't always need to build in stops. 

[nuge]

Well I would agree that a friction screw press really is the thing to have.  The issue is that to do the work of a 30 ton hydraulic press you need a 100 ton Screw press.    Now if I could find a 100-150 ton friction screw press I could buy reasonable I think Id jump on it but I dont think it would completely replace a hydraulic press either.

 
Why do you say this?  Are the "ratings" just different?   Most tasks I would like a screw press for seem to profit from the fact that there is limited heat suck.  

[monstermetal]

I can answer that in one word...   Inertia

 

Why does a 350 pound Nazel hammer hit with 7500 lbs of force instead of 350lb?   Inertia. 

 

A  slow press has no "blow" and will not carry energy though a hot part,   A friction screw press has a blow that is closer to a hammer than a press (although not quite like a hammer)

 

I have several slow presses for cold work.   I have a 100 ton C frame press, a 30 ton C frame press and a 400 ton H frame press, and a 50 ton C frame on the front of my ironworker... All have electric valves and none are fast enough or suitable for hot work.

 

This press will be for hot work only and speed is the primary concern,   A press that is fast and light tonnage will out work a slow but high tonnage press by a factor of ten when your dealing with forging temps.     My 400 ton press moves so slow that it is basically useless for forging.     

[Jim Kehler]

I think the question was why would screw presses and hydraulic presses be rated differently, I am curious as well, I thought that a 30 ton screw press would out perform a slow 30 ton hydraulic on forging.

 

Cold and confused in Manitoba :huh:

[Guest Low-Alloy]

I think the question was why would screw presses and hydraulic presses be rated differently, I am curious as well, I thought that a 30 ton screw press would out perform a slow 30 ton hydraulic on forging.

Cold and confused in Manitoba :huh:

I, too, am curios as to why a much smaller rated hydraulic press can do the work of a three times larger rated fly/friction press? Is it because the rating of a flypress is measured/rated against cold metal? That is, the flywheel coming to an almost instant stop, as apposed to the energy it takes to move hot metal over a longer distance?

[DClaville]

I do have a 6" but its like 40" of stroke.

 

if you don't have other plans for that cylinder, why not just shorten it?

[basher]

My experience with my own built press would lean to higher speed and lower tonnage.

 I run a 4 inch piston.

 to that aim I changed my power pack from a 10 hp 4 gallon per minute to a 7.5 5 gallon per minute pump my max force has gon down from 18 tonne to 12 tonne but the hot forging potential has increased considerably.

 I have plans to put a 3 " ram in as well as I find that the time contact when I am punching hammer eyes is still cooking my punches even H13 ones .and a quicker action would mean less heat transfer.

 There are advantages in having less power tooling is less stressed and steel is much less likely to be over forged.

 I have purchased electric valving in order to speed up the response time , there is a reaction time lag between reaching pressure and manually controlling the press. I am hoping electric valving with stops will decrease that heat sucking  stop at the end of cycle.

[Rodney Skinner]

http://www.amazon.com/Industrial-Hydraulic-Technology-Bulletin-0221-B1/dp/B000YE15K6  

 

The above link is for a Parker Industrial Hydraulic Technology bulletin.  This will give you a full understanding of hydraulic systems.

 

I am concerned about some of the above comments.  It is important to know PSI = working force not flow.  Flow = speed.  While speed = inertia it is not the proper way to achieve results in hydraulics.

 

I have not read anything about pressure relief valves in the systems for example.

 

 

Please understand I am not trying to criticize, come across as a know it all, or perceived as arrogant.    I just want to help if I can.

[Frosty]

Rodney: I don't think you're arrogant but we haven't had time to get to know each other yet. <grin> I haven't spoken up about hydraulics, largely because I really tend to ramble since the accident an hydraulics isnt something to be confused about when you're plumbing a system. I did soils explorations for bridges and foundations, drilled, and a modern drill rig has more hydraulics than a boy wants to contemplate.

 

I'll try to avoid a wild ramble and say, you and I are on the same page. Hydraulics are dangerous VERY. a pinhole can not only cut like a knife but inject you with hydraulic oil, this is BAD on all counts. In all the systems I rigged I used hard lines everywhere I could. Hoses flex and suck energy, hard lines, (steel pipe) doesn't suck near so much energy so more gets to the work end, it's also much less likely to leak and if it does you can see it. See it, if that is you painted it.

 

Paint is your friend. It has very little stretch in it so if a weld starts failing the paint will peel before the weld fails completely. Same goes for a hydraulic leak the first thing it'll do is peel the paint and that's your warning. Heed it and you're golden, ignore it and . . .

 

If you have a supply house that carries hydraulics bring soe donuts and talk to the boys, it's been my experience they're VERY helpful and have helped me design systems for various things. For instance there's no need to sacrifice speed for power, you CAN have both in different ways. #1 is usually a bigger pump but larger diameter plumbing works wonders.

 

Hydraulics depending on the fluid being non-compressible means the fluid can NOT flow any faster than the smallest port allows and those are most often at the cylinders or out of the pumps Valves typically have healthy sized ports. So enlarging the ports and plumbing will speed things up with no sacrifice in power.

 

You can spin a gear pump faster for faster flow. I HOPE I don't have to say, don't exceed safe rpm.

 

For more advanced systematics and a somewhat sexier look you can install an Accumulator(s). An accumulator is a small tank that is precharged with air to the desired pressure. Think of it like it's a well tank or water hammer stoppers (can't recall thename) Accumulators maintain the hydraulics at a preset pressure so when you open a valve the fluid moves immediately so there isn't a delay while the pump pressurizes the lines. Accumulators also serve as shock absorbers, if a ram slams into something that isn't going to move the pressure in the system WILL spike till the pump stalls and or the reliefs open. Just like the water hammer dampers.

 

Oh DRATS I got all rambly. however bear in mind I was only addressing one topic, ram speed and power. Everything I talked about bears directly on the and safety. Pick up a couple hydraulics books ask the guys at a shop questions and which are the best books. In Anchorage there are two great suppliers, Anchorage Bearing  and US Bearing. Alaska Rubber is another great source for all things hydraulic.

 

Talk to the pros, donuts don't hurt but keeping out of the way and making their day more interesting is really helpful.

 

Frosty The Lucky.