Joel OF Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Hi folks, I'm a novice with a desire to make bowls, I know there's no substitute for good technique but I was wondering if there's any particular tools that could make my life easier? I've been doing some browsing on the Vaughns website for tools that might help, could anyone shed any light on how suitable hide, wood or bossing hammers would be? Also, could a leather sandbag be useful? Can they be used with heated metal? At the minute I just have an anvil and metal hammers, I'm aware that some swage blocks have bowl shapes but I don't think I can even afford a second hand one. The two things that give me the most grief at the minute are the way the sheet steel moves around on the anvil and the loud clanging noise as it bounces. I spent quite a lot of money at Christmas with a local woodturner who makes bowls, I saw him again the other day and asked him if he could indent a bowl shape into a hunk of wood for me to use as an "anvil" as I imagine the wood would cushion the bounce a bit more, he said he could and he's do it for free! Could this be useful? I'd imagine I'd need to treat the wood somehow to stop it burning, or another idea I had was to get some very thin sheet and hammer than cold into the bowl and then nail it down around the sides so the wood is protected a little. Any help would be appreciated. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 the bottom of some big cylinders are concave the work well. also a large steel ball is very helpful. If you have a stump tat will burn in and work. but to planish the bowl I use the ball welded to a post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 You either raise or sink or perhaps a combination of the two. Raising is done over stakes. Bowls could be best done over dome and ball stakes. For a circular bowl, you'd be hammering in concentric circles while turning the metal. Steel can be done hot or cold, but if cold, occasionally annealing is in order. Sinking can be done in a sandbag cold. Another route is to sink into a steel ring, the ring made of heavy round-section stock. When sinking, the metal thins a little more than when raising. Finishing a bowl is often done by careful hammering over stakes, called planishing. Another method of bowl making is spinning which is a whole other ball game. "Metalsmithing for the Artist Craftsman" by Richard Thomas. Thomas formerly taught at Cranbrook Academy in Michigan and the books shows the use of stakes. Video orDVD "The Silversmith of Williamsburg" Williamsburg Foundation, Williamsburg, VA. The expert makes a coffee pot with spout, handle, and hinged lid. "Metal Techniques for Craftsmen" by Oppi Untracht. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Two processes, sinking or raising. Much quicker to sink. You can look up the differences.... Kiss engineering is a tree stump with a hollow(s) gouged or ground out of the end grain, can be with hot or cold metal provided you don't mind a bit of wood smoke. Sinking, always start from the outside edge and work in to the centre in concentric circles. If it is thin sheet and you get a buckle forming, use heat and start from the inside nearer the centre, flatten the softer bent part without forging it (use a round faced box mallet) work out towards the edge unbending it to ensure you do not get a fold. The larger the face of the sinking hammer the better, think steel mushroom, dishing a large area a little bit is quicker and less problematic (kinks and folds) than moving a small area radically with a ball pein. If you are trying to make a hemisphere use at least a couple of different bowl forms, shallow to start and then the deeper one. The reason being you can use the intermediate woodbowl to true the kinks, the metal only touches the edges of the hollow until it has taken up the same radius. Best of luck, Alan Next step is to use a press, fly or hydraulic and make a series of top an bottom tools for the various radii of bowl you need. One heat hemisphere in thicker material then is easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 The best way I have found, for me, is to make a ring of the appropriate width to equal the depth of your bowl, put another ring of 1/2" around the top edge ( so you don't mark up the outside of the bowl ) use a rounding hammer to depress your metal into the ring, planish from the inside on the anvil, ( with the round side of hammer ) using this method you will never be at a loss for the right size "jig" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Leather will not work for the heats at which iron is worked hot. A stump is simple and no need to preform it... just lay the hot metal on the end grain and commence sinking... the heat will char the stump and your hammering will compress the end grain and in no time at all you'll have a nice wood swage! When it gets too wallowed out flip the stump for a new surface or get another one going! You can combine the metal ring swage with the stump swage too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 I found a photo of my small bowl tool drawer. Different tools made up over the years for different projects. The smaller solid ball tools were domed in the lathe and then used to forge the final profile in the bottom tool. The larger ones were formed in the press by themselves! Well sort of. I started with a 100mm(4") length of Ø150mm (Ø6") tube wrapped/welded a bit of Ø16mm (Ø5/8") around the rim pushed a disc of 12mm (1/2") plate into it with a variety of different radii bar chumps to give the hemispherical profile; welded a bit of Ø25mm (Ø1") to fit the fly press chuck and used a thick washer/sleeve to take the pressure from the face of the chuck. Using that as the top tool I made a series of different depth bowls to act as intermediates; either drop in bottom tools, or, by welding a chucking peg on, top tools. For all sinking the main problem is the edge buckling. That can be controlled that by trapping the edge between top and bottom forming bowls or virtually eradicating by being generous with the bowl material thickness. The thicker the material the easier to control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted January 19, 2013 Author Share Posted January 19, 2013 Wow, thanks for all the help!! I'll look into everything you guys have raised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Olivo Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 The one thing not mentioned that really helps is to soak the wood form in water ...say overnight. You won't have to deal with smoke from hot forming (only steam and cooling of the metal). Most sheet metal can be domed easily enough in endgrane chiseled out doesn't even have to be that specific of a form. Free hollow in endgrane would be worth it. Its free after all :D Here is a picture of the tools I use for my sinking and raising operations. (for more complex shapes as well as bowls) Two sized ball peins not pictured a 1 1/2 lbs. one and a 1 lbs. one. The smaller one is pollished to a mirror finish for planishing over the trailer hitch ball. The three small steaks are made for use in the post vice and are reversible (six steaks for 3, from mark asperys books) The trailer hitch ball is also used in the vice. (hence the flanges for clamping, just a peice I found that worked) The sheild was made using all of these tools. Including the crack in the stump (more usefull than you might think) Its gotten dirty but was a butifully mirror bright sheild when I finished it years back. A handy modification that one of my fellow smiths has made is to make a sheet metal band that can be sinched around a log that is attached to a square shank so it can be fitted into the hardy hole of your anvil. This keeps it from dancing around when in use. Also usefull for clamping it in the vice for use. Something I just haven't gotten around to doing quite yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted January 23, 2013 Author Share Posted January 23, 2013 Hi again folks, i scored some gas canisters today, they've all got a bit of gas left in them so i've got to let that out, are there any hard and fast tests or methods to let me know its ok to start cutting? I dont really trust my sense of smell and hearing to let me know its ok to start cutting. Other than getting someone else to do it for me, is there a one way thats safer than any other to cut? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 What kind of gas canisters? Some are more volatile than others. If you are going to cut them, then you need to purge them of any gas before even attempting to start to cut them. The Calor and butane tanks are really quite thin material and not suitable as dishing tools After purging, a hacksaw would probably be the least dangerous way to go, I say least because their is no guaranteed safe way. I have cut them by removing the brass valve assembly, purging them thouroughly with water, then filling them with water and using a thin stainless steel cut off wheel, cut them off whilst the tank is full of water. Explosions are gas/air mix. Here you are dealing with gas and heat, electricity and water and all its inherent dangers. Best to leave them alone, and look for something more suitable or less suicidal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted January 23, 2013 Author Share Posted January 23, 2013 Cheers John, they're Lister ones and just tiddlers. I can make out a date of 2012 on one but the labels are 99% covered in gunk so I don't know anymore than that. Not very thick at the bottom and also convex in shape as opposed to concave but I took a punt nonetheless for the sake of giving it a go and all good experience - unless it goes bang. I've got some 2 and 3mm sheet off-cuts to make some bowls out of and I thought the canister bottoms would be solid enough to take the hammering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale M. Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 You might look around for something like old bumpers or something that has desirable 'form' and use that as a form to work your metal in... Cut off rounded end of old bumper could be mounted in a vice and worked both inside and outside .......Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 What kind of gas canisters? Some are more volatile than others. If you are going to cut them, then you need to purge them of any gas before even attempting to start to cut them. The Calor and butane tanks are really quite thin material and not suitable as dishing tools After purging, a hacksaw would probably be the least dangerous way to go, I say least because their is no guaranteed safe way. I have cut them by removing the brass valve assembly, purging them thouroughly with water, then filling them with water and using a thin stainless steel cut off wheel, cut them off whilst the tank is full of water. Explosions are gas/air mix. Here you are dealing with gas and heat, electricity and water and all its inherent dangers. Best to leave them alone, and look for something more suitable or less suicidal. oxygen or helium cylinders here in the US. Then you have a nice bell out of the rest. one more item that will work well if you work the steel cold is a sand bag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 You might want to take a stroll over to the armourarchive.org and search on dishing as there are probably a hundred pages on the topic as it's a common armour making question. In general grinding a proper dishing hammer face onto a cheap boot sale hammer and remembering hard over soft or soft over hard will help a lot. If you use a hard hammer use a soft dishing surface and if you use a soft hammer use a hard dishing form. I have found the ring from a ring and pintle tow set up to make a nice "bottomless form" also lifting eyes. As pressure tanks need to be certified on a regular basis I have often gotten the nicely dished bottoms from hydro testing places free or at scrap rate. Note: there is no practical way to make an acetylene tank safe to cut so stick to O2, N2, CO2, Argon, He, etc tanks. Also telling us how thick of metal and what type you want to dish would be a help. I've seen a smith dish 1/8" copper trapping it between two heavy steel plates with a circle cut out in them and then using an impact gun (air driven) and a torch to anneal as necessary---was for a baptismal font. If you are dishing 5cm steel you will want a hydraulic press and to work hot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted January 24, 2013 Author Share Posted January 24, 2013 The Calor and butane tanks are really quite thin material and not suitable as dishing tools Blimey I see what you mean now...I found 3 of the right type of canisters today, the steel on them must be atleast 5mm thick! Fortunately 2 of them have already I have cut them by removing the brass valve assembly How did you unscrew the valve? This one is extremely tight. It must be empty by now, the tap's been open 100% all day and in fact it was open when I found it in the scrap yard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted January 24, 2013 Author Share Posted January 24, 2013 Thomas - I don't think I'd want to go above 6mm. I doubt I'd use steel that thick reguarly but I reckon these canisters would stand the test, they'd certainly help me to start off the bowl shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 How did you unscrew the valve? This one is extremely tight. It must be empty by now, the tap's been open 100% all day and in fact it was open when I found it in the scrap yard. Have you tried it as a left hand thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 You mean lefty tighty, righty loosey?? My world will turn upside down! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FeaxannevaLem Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 · Hidden by Moderator51, January 25, 2013 - Repetative drivvel Hidden by Moderator51, January 25, 2013 - Repetative drivvel I paucity to tribulation in behalf of my assay dextral where it is, go about to work to rights at times, because it slips into the days and into the days present to too quickly. It is a struggle. There is a blending of torture handy me and in me at the wink of an corroborate and I am nonplussed to mark anything. So I form object and testament purse note of the birds.You should be dressed no pre-existing medical conditions. If something develops during the labor we plate wishes as greater than you during safety. Yes. It may be disheartened trade as a nostrum for of you. That is ok. It is stupendous to turn disappointment. You wanted to irritate a poorhouse birth. You wanted to comprise a Nativity Center birth, a invalid origin, to squat kwiaciarnia kraków When were at Bard on the discourse we both background in love. We hew down desperately and emotionally in be wild about with the campus, with the loveliness, the egghead stimulation that was poignantly present at all turns. The trees! The simpatico grassy fields. The supervised greater older mountains in the distance. The immature farm. My memories were washing in prodigality of me in a compel that I can’t conscientious describe. Aggravating, not counting considerate of resolution and sensation. We left-winger the campus in boost of a damaged, unbigoted to combat an irrational break. I less than no circumstances surely opt into the pause to reread any of my posts. My gingerbread is to order together this without a taint blog into my own pair off journal/book anecdote day. Anecdote in the utilize of each of my daughters. A documentation of much of their life. When I do colonize no vim down and remember posts from years gone hither means of, I am overwhelmingly grateful. There are so diversified forgotten moments written all circuitous direct and described. I cognition them again. Link to comment
trying-it Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I remove valves from a lot of old LP and Freon type tanks here by using a ratchet strap to bind tank securely at a tree base. Then use pipe wrench to remove valve, extra piece of pipe on wrench handle if needed. Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Hi Kurgan, I make pans and cauldrons for reenacters, where I have to dish the bottoms. When I do the dishing the tool I use is a ring about 5/6 inches in dia I made from a length of 1" dia rod. The rod was just forged into a ring and the ends stick welded together and a length of square bar was then welded on the outside to fit in the hardy hole. This method has served me for years and it is easy to make different rings for different jobs. wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gaddis Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 How about a few pictures to "show and tell" us folks Carry on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 Folks, I'm kinda resurrecting this thread as I've got another question... I got some heavy duty gas canisters a while back, they're about 10mm thick, I haven't done anything with them yet but now I want to use them. The scrap yard I got them from had already cut them in half for some reason. I can cut them down shorter into more manageable sizes as they're still quite long - I don't have a torch cutter so I'll take it to someone else to get that done. After that how can I mount them? I invested in my first welder the other day, it's a 175 amp arc welder. I was thinking of welding each one to 6mm plate, then fixing the plate to a tree stump. I'd bend each end of the plate over the stump so that I'm not drilling into the stump end grain. I've seen this pictures of this plate/stump combo before with leg vices, do you think this will work for the gas canisters, or has anyone got any better ideas? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Why fix to a stump? I always favour versatility and would be inclined to mount them by supporting the outside diameter on a ring (you may not even need the plate) then they could be used on any flat surface, floor, bench, anvil, stump top, fly or hydraulic press base... Better still make a ring or tube base then you can drop any radius bowl former in depending on the shape you want to make. If the bowl you are forming is larger than the tool you are only putting pressure on the rim of the dish tool so that is where the tool needs support. I made most of the large bowls and the tools in my photo earlier in this thread from scratch by forming a 175mm ring from 16mm round bar and welding it to a short section of pipe it is only the rim that you use and it must have a soft edge to avoid a load of crescent shaped bruises on the outside of the bowl you are making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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