Jump to content
I Forge Iron

Any details on how the plate was welded to Fisher-Norris anvils?


Recommended Posts

According to AIA, the top plate was pre-heated, then placed at the bottom of the casting mold before the cast iron for the base was pured in.  The welding took place during the casting process as the molten cast iron was poured in, over the plate.

 

Edit - Reference added: Anvils in America, Richard Postman, 1998, pg 148-149.

Edited by jimn0504
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did anyone else get the impression from that description that they weren't pouring the entire anvil in one fell swoop?  

 

I remember that photo njanvilman posted that showed the mold pattern for one size anvil, and it had a big black box shaped thing on top of the anvil's top plate.  Never understood what this would have been for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Time to correct a lot of what was said above....some facts, some conjecture. 

 

More details will forthcoming in the future when my book on the Fisher company is completed, but I will try to fill in some of the blanks:

 

1. The anvils were poured in a single pour.

 

2. The steel parts were not preheated outside of the mold.

 

3. The anvils were heat treated after casting and cleaning and grinding.

 

4. Fisher anvils were cast upside down in the mold.  That is why on most Fisher anvils you see a round riser spot on the bottom base.

 

5. No particular grade of cast iron was used.  They started with coke and added scrap iron and fluxes in a basic blast furnace.  This process continued until the EPA shut them down in December 1979.

 

6. The big black extension on the anvil mold was the preheat chamber that was molded into the sand mold.  Preheat was done by pouring molten iron through a special flask that had openings on the side.  This iron would fill the preheat cavity, and flow out the other side, and be collected for reuse.  After a preset amount had been poured, the side opening were dammed with clay, and left for a period of time to get the steel parts to a red heat.

 

7.  After a period of time, the iron was now poured through a complex gating system to "wash" the special fluxes off the steel, and initiate the welding process.  The complete mold cavity was then filled with molten iron.

 

8. Fisher traditionally poured on Fridays.  They spent the morning closing the molds while iron was melted.  Poured till finished.  Molds cooled over the weekend.  Monday all molds opened.  Foundry clay reconditioned.  And the moldmakers began making new molds for the Friday pour.  The cooled anvils first had the excess spruing and preheat iron broken off, then sandblasting, then machining and grinding.  Finally heat treating, then paint. 

 

I remind everyone that I own the rights the Fisher & Norris and am the only one legally able to make these products and put the name Fisher on them.

 

I also repeat my invite for anyone with the interest to visit my collection/museum if you are in the NJ area.  I have contacted ABANA about a display or visit in 2014 when the Convention is in Delaware, but have not heard back from them yet.

 

I welcome all inquiries about the Fisher history, and also welcome any photos or anecdotes you have about Fisher.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

njanvilman-

 

I have a question regarding your statement-

"I remind everyone that I own the rights the Fisher & Norris and am the only one legally able to make these products and put the name Fisher on them."

 

I would assume that the original patent has long expired on the process for making the anvils. I have no-doubt you own the rights to the Fisher-Norris name but 

how can you own the production process of the anvil itself? I would agree that no one else can put the name Fisher on them.

 

Please clarify for the unenlightened.

Thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Crossley stopped making Fisher anvils in 1979 because of their non-pollution controlled furnace.  They tried to find anyone who could replicate the process, unsuccessfully.  I do not think anyone could possible do what Fisher did without a huge investment.  Someone might try to do what Fisher did, but I doubt they would have much success.

 

I legally transfered the rights from the last owner of Crossley for the rights to Fisher anvils, Eagle anvil Works, and everything associated with it.  Considering I own the remaining original patterns, it would be kind of hard for anyone else to make a real Fisher anvil.  Their process of welding iron to steel was unique.  I know Star and Vulcan did something similar, but Fisher anvil have stood the test of time and have always been recognized as the superior product.

 

I am planning on using one of the original Swage Block patterns to have some made.  I am working on the core boxes to go with the pattern.  I will add a current date and name to give them a provenance.

 

I do not know if this answers you question.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Chinese pride themselves on counterfeiting, considering their manufacturing standards are becoming increasingly better, we might be seeing some sooner rather than later. Products usually start out as marginally poor, and then get increasingly better as they trouble shoot the issues.

 

 

I'd recommend anyone trying to recreate the Fisher, namely China -> *** Don't*** ....

 

You'll go for broke trying to counterfeit the Fisher, and I, along with a great many other Fisher owners, would personally go to great lengths to boycott it's sale in the U.S. with rude reviews "IF" you made one... I'm not anti-China, just take great pride in the history of my country, and the Fisher I've been beating on for the past couple of weeks...

 

Your investment would see better return if you were to do a cast steel or forged steel anvil. With quality control and oversight, you could produce a great anvil, and own a slice of the new anvil market in the U.S... The Rhino is a great example of a successfully manufactured anvil that for it's first few years came from China.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I am in China and here is the story. (I was told that I can be verbose...Yeah, cracked the dictionary on that one.) I have been working here for a few years and getting bored with the unavailability of my hobbies from the USA. An old, locally know blacksmith in Berryville, Arkansas, Ike Doss, gave me my start in blacksmithing. Work and family required more time and I eventually sold all my big tools and equipment. Recently, I got the knife making bug again and started my search here for the best anvil I could find in China. There is a tremendous variety of steel available locally and steel to make a good post anvil is very easy find. However, since I started searching for anvils I kept it up and found a very few making cast steel anvils. I contacted them in hopes of buying one. The manager/owner of one factory called me back and wanted to meet. He came to my area and we met over lunch talking anvils, steel, history etc.

 

He has been in the foundry business for many years. In fact, was in a business relationship with one of the famous USA vise companies. His factory sells mostly vises to some of the large retailers in the USA. They do make cast iron ASO's and started making cast steel anvils which mostly go to Europe. He was talking about wanting to add a steel face to cast iron anvils and he was discussing using mechanical fasteners.which I don't think will be successful.  I mentioned Fisher had done this many years ago and since he had the facilities he could afford to play with the process which is something most of us just can't do.

 

Having lived here and worked with some factories here was my advice to him about anvils: #1 is quality. If the product is of marginal quality the American buyer will not spend his/her money on it. #2 is price. Since it is coming from China, the quality will be suspect. (see #1) The price must be enticing to the consumer. China can make very good products. For you who live in the USA, you get what the buyers order. They order cheap trashy goods from factories and that is what you are buying in the stores. Don't always blame the Chinese factory for the poor quality. Talk to the people placing the orders. Some BMW motorcycle engines are made here now. They can do good work.

 

I don't have deep enough pockets to invest in a project this size to produce and market anvils in the USA. However, if I were to do it I would not use the Fisher-Norris name. Never thought about that, never would think of it. And finally, I am not so sure they will be able to duplicate the process.

 

This week or next I will be getting a 100KG(220lb) cast steel anvil from the factory. I will give a review of it here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll second the notion that there are a great number of fantastic products outsourced to china; Carrilo Rods and Pistons, Wiseco pistons, a great lot of Harley Davidson internals (not that great imhO), Garret Turbochargers, and countless more products revered for quality.

 

That being said;

 

If steel is so abundant, why mess with the painstaking process of mimicking the Fisher Recipe? Sounds like a bag of worms to me... A QC'd cast steel anvil, properly done, would get a lot more attention, and bring a better asking price... You would save money in the long run, and you could reap the rewards of being the guy who made it happen... Just my logic stirring. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nowhere in my posts or in my mind did i consider making anvils allude to using the Fisher name. I think some of you jumped a little too quick on that. I was asking about the process Fisher used. Someone pointed out earlier that the patents on the process have expired long ago. The process now can be copied. Smith and Wesson held the patent on the bored through chambers in a revolving cylinder. Colt had to wait until the patent expired to produce a cartridge revolver.

Link to comment
Share on other sites



This week or next I will be getting a 100KG(220lb) cast steel anvil from the factory. I will give a review of it here.
Now I read it... You have my full attention... Looking forward to the review...





I'm personally not on the name kick...Just the counterfeit kick... I'll just say that if it mimics the Fisher pattern or they put a hawk instead of an eagle *lol, I'd be a terp'd...




If they can mimic the processin a german pattern, and they make it in sizes; Big, Huge, and Monstrosity- aka "Dhonghee Kong"... Then I look forward to it...
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My advice to the factory owner was to forget the cast iron/steel face anvil. There is too much prejudice toward Chinese cast iron anvils to enter the market with that item. My question was more curiosity than anything.

I look forward to giving my opinion on the anvil!!! I live in a private school here and my shop is about 25 minutes away. I have not yet built my stand. Waiting for the anvil to do that. I have lived here long enough to know that whatever dimensions they give on a website or literature will probably be wrong.

As to the steel vs iron issue. Cast iron is much cheaper than the C45(1045) steel they are currently using. But I totally agree that a high quality cast steel anvil will generate much more interest and have a bigger market than a steel faced cast iron one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I can ever find a foundry to do Fisher anvils, they would probably be cast Steel in the Koloshawa? style of material.  The process that Fisher invented and used required very specific flasks and techniques that would be cost prohibitive in todays world.  Even when they were in production, they had very specific time/motion studies and tasks to keep costs down.  Fisher factory over the years gave employment to many and made the owners rich, not wealthy, it was never a huge profit center.

 

I am proud that I rescued what I did and have a place to store and study it.  Come on down and visit sometime.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember when I grew up (1950s) seeing  the words "Made in Japan" on the bottom of a little model car or toy was a joke. They would usually break on the way home. Today "Made in Japan" like Toyota etc is a mark of quality. When China makes that leap watch out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted · Hidden by Glenn, January 4, 2013 - political
Hidden by Glenn, January 4, 2013 - political

 

The Chinese pride themselves on counterfeiting, considering their manufacturing standards are becoming increasingly better, we might be seeing some sooner rather than later. Products usually start out as marginally poor, and then get increasingly better as they trouble shoot the issues.

 

 

I'd recommend anyone trying to recreate the Fisher, namely China -> *** Don't*** ....

 

You'll go for broke trying to counterfeit the Fisher, and I, along with a great many other Fisher owners, would personally go to great lengths to boycott it's sale in the U.S. with rude reviews "IF" you made one... I'm not anti-China, just take great pride in the history of my country, and the Fisher I've been beating on for the past couple of weeks...

 

Your investment would see better return if you were to do a cast steel or forged steel anvil. With quality control and oversight, you could produce a great anvil, and own a slice of the new anvil market in the U.S... The Rhino is a great example of a successfully manufactured anvil that for it's first few years came from China.  

I too will boycott anything coming from there. I'd discourage anybody from giving any money or business to those murdering butchers.

Their use of slave labor is largely responsible for the wrecked economy worldwide as well. Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZkaSjdRo_I

GM ought to be boycotted as well for such treason.

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...