Momatt Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 If you don't have a swage block, is it dangerous to use the hardy hole in terms of potentially breaking the anvil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert hanford Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 I have done so good results, but I'm not sure if it is really safe or not. It might also depends on where the hardie hole is on your anvil and what type of anvil you have etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert hanford Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 That first sentence should read-I have done so with good results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Evers Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Don't quote me as an expert, but as long as the hardy shank isn't a press fit into the hardy hole, I wouldn't worry too much . I think much of the risk lies in hammering on a hardy that is a tight fit. That said, a 1" hardy hole in a 4' wide anvil does weaken it by 25%. I have shaped a bunch of cold horse shoes in the hardy hole W/O problem and that was on a fairly shallow heeled anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewayforge Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Just go easy on it, no 20 lb sledges and you should be fine, I have hammered with my 8 lber on a barely supported railroad baseplate hanging over the edge of a stump to make hardy tools, just make sure it is a tapered shank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 You want to be sure the shank is forged to size so that it fits into the hole. The hole will not be a perfect square so you need to forge it to fit and mark one side indicating the position. Do not force a tool into the hardy hole this can break an anvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momatt Posted December 21, 2012 Author Share Posted December 21, 2012 Thanks for the information. I will go easy, though trying to form the 1-inch stock calls for some hammering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 An overlooked item in this thread is the size and make of the anvil..Some small anvils have rather unsupported areas under the hardy..some are immensly strong. Also in this site recently there was a video on making a die for forming hardy tools with a power hammer. It dealt with making the entire tool not just the hardy, but the tool could be used with hand hammers to form correct sized shanks on tools. And if youi follow the anvil threads here you will for sure find questions about how to fix an anvil with a broken heel. For me that is a huge clue as to wot we should do and how when using a hardy hole if we have an anvil that in any way makes us think that it is not strong enough for wot we wish to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob S Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 If you don't have a swage block, is it dangerous to use the hardy hole in terms of potentially breaking the anvil? this seems to be the current method of making a 'hardy' tool. personally I have always found it easier to draw down rather than upset (up). start with a piece somewhat larger (1/4") than your square hole and draw down the shank. then form the tool end into a cut off shape or a swage or ?. even easier is to take a piece of leaf spring and draw down till it fits your square hole diagonally. broken or used up jackhammer points which are widely available in construction rental places etc. they already have an upset collar and are easily made into a useful tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 look up Brian Brazeal's striking anvil you can make one very cheep out of mild steel and you do not have to worrie about damaging your anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 You can make a bolster plate if you are worried. The plate can be backed up by a wood stump with a clearance hole drilled under the hole you are using. Use 1/2 inch steel or thicker. I used 1 inch. I chiseled the hole similar to a video by Mark Aspery on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxTdbC5MLRQ Make yourself a diamond point chisel out of some coil spring before making the bolster plate, if you plan to chisel. With the proper tools, and a pre-drilled hole it took me about an hour to make and clean the 1 inch square hole in 1 inch mild. You can also hot drift like Brian Brazeal. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob S Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 my point wasn't that I was worried about breaking the anvil but that even with a strong anvil or swage block or bolster plate I would find it easier to make hardys or swages by drawing down a somewhat larger piece rather than upsetting at all. especially by using a jackhammer point or piece of leaf spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 If you don't have a swage block, is it dangerous to use the hardy hole in terms of potentially breaking the anvil? Like all things, this is common sense, a hardie hole is the old equivalant of quick change tooling, and use of excessive force always causes problems. Each hardie hole is unique, and tooling would be made specifically to suit each anvil. I doubt that the original use of the hardie hole was to upset tooling in. The tooling would be rough forged, (maybe jumped up in the swage block at an appropriate size equivelant/slightly plus, to the hardie hole the tooling is being made for) dressed, and then fitted into the hardie hole at high red heat, and that does not present a problem as the force needed to bed in the tooling should not be high enough to fracture the anvil. All hardie tooling used to come so that the loading was bearing on the face of the anvil around the edge of the hardie hole and not acting as a wedge to drive into the aperture. Just to pose a question, if you think a tapered peg for a hardie without shoulders, is likely to fracture the heel, why does Brian Brazeal advocate the use of them on his cut off hardies? IMHO If you think you are going to have problems breaking off the heel on your anvil, then you are advised to use other methods/tools, or use less force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 John, Because it means the hardie does not move. It will NOT split the heel, because there is actually (in comparison to say a bottom fuller) a minimal force going into the anvil, as due to the small surface area when cutting, more energy is more easily absorbed into the workpeice. Just look at the striking ends of a flatter and then a top hot cut - the flatter when used 'gives' less and so the head is worn out more. Same principal as with the hardy hole. Brian's hot cut is the best there is-i guarantee it! With practice, and a properly mounted anvil, cuts on 1.5 inch round are easily accomplished in one heat with a hand hammer. Brian has even cut 2 inch 4140 in one heat with a hand hammer before on one of these hardies. When we meet, John, I will get you to strike for a hot cut so you can have your own to see for yourself! Do not believe any of this without trying it! Then you will see! Have a merry christmas! Alec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 Thank you for explaining that Alec, I look forward to your instruction. The point of my post was to answer the original question posed ie If you don't have a swage block, is it dangerous to use the hardy hole in terms of potentially breaking the anvil? When you say the hardie (hot cut) does not move, it is because it is wedged in situ, and so there will be forces exerted into the edges of the hardie hole when it is being used, however due to the correct working practice of cutting the metal when it is hot, there is no excessive force being exerted that would cause the heel to break. I think it is safe to suggest that most breakages occur because of excessive force being used, or a flaw in the anvil's manufacture, or a combination of both. A properly made and fitted tool for the hardie hole should pose no great risk in breaking the anvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humphreymachine Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 I have a 300lb Fisher and unfortunately do not feel as confident as Stuarthesmith about really pounding on hardies or that end of the anvil. While I love the sound deadening properties of the Fisher’s steel on cast iron construction that same construction makes me weary of its ability to hold up as well as a forged anvil of the same size. A lightly used anvil should last for many generations to come. One that is worked to the limit will almost certainly not last as long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 Another note expanding on Alec's post is that the tapered shank which wedges into the hardy hole that Brian makes should NOT be used on any other sort of tooling except cutting tools. The fine edge of this tool will fail LONG before enough downward force to damage the anvil can be exerted. I actually make a cold cut hardy by heat treating one of the "Brian style" hot cuts I made and it responds just like the hot cut version, the material being cut or the hardy tool gives LONG before enough force can transfer into the anvil. But any tooling with a broad surface will transfer far more force into the anvil and potentially damage it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Remember that "traditionally" blacksmiths worked real wrought iron often at a while heat where it's so soft it's like hammering boiled spaghetti. The also did a whole lot more forge welding too. I wouldn't use a 20# sledge on my 500# Fisher; but do use a 9# sledge---about the max that I can use efficiently Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 I have done it many times on at least a dozen anvils with 12 lb sledge hammers. Never had anything happen except I did once turn the edges of my hardie hole blue. I would not do it on a cast iron anvil. On a quality anvil the probility of failure is very low. Anvils are very strong they can handle it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale M. Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 You could make your own swedge block....http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/30718-swage-block-for-making-hardies-for-your-anvil/Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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