At the risk ......

[bigred]

of becoming the most unpopular pseud on ifi i feel that i have to make one or two observations re 'training'.

There is a very good reason for the apprenticeship and training schemes run in their various guises in the various countries of the world. it's not simply about standardising skill levels, it's about staying in one piece in an industry that can kill you in the blink of an eye. In too many instances, in everything from grinding wheels to electrical safety, opinion seems to be given the same weight as knowledge, that is a dangerous thing.

I am a trained artisan and I am relatively new to this kind of forum (I thought it ws a trade kind of thing), and to be honest I am quite shocked at some of the suggestions and advice handed out by individuals, especially in areas of ad hoc fixes and builds on grinding wheels etc. Here in the UK (at least in the trades) formal training in all aspects of using and maintaining machinery is mandatory before you get to press the green button.

I would be very interested in the accident statistics for the 'interested amateur' v professionally trained artisan.

For my money, if you want to be a thing, then be that thing - don't play at it, or think it can be achieved by some kind of short-cut which gives you only the good stuff - find a college course, taster course, tradesman/artisan, company, corporation or some means by which you can achieve competence safely.

I know I wiill likely be crucified by the self-taught here but, in my defence, i have worked in this game all of my life, in more than one country, and in more than one hemisphere; in every single place I have worked it has been the simplest of matters to sort the trained from the self-taught - think about it - that means something. The only way to maintain standards within the trade (WHETHER IT BE BLACKSMITHING, FABRICATION, WELDING OR THE minor metal trades) is for basic competence to be established through the awarding trade bodies.

I am all for root and branch reform of these bodies to allow the entry of adults and to modify the training and requirements for qualification to more reflect the needs of more mature people wanting to train, but i feel a strong need to defend the necessity for maintaining standards through training - this will keep the trade healthy and respected.

[Steve Sells]

I agree, This is a "post at will" site, we encourage open discussion, and after a while most can sort out the real trained people and those that guess, It does annoy me when intelligent talk is interupted with off the wall idiocy, but thats the internet.

Fyi: I am:
Journeymen level Blacksmith/Bladesmith
Licensed Master Electrician,
Licensed Jujitsu Instructor,
former licensed Energency Medical Tech.


I worked hard for these, and wanna-be's playing at them can get people killed, I agree. But smithing, is not as popular a trade as it once was, and for many learning on their own is the only option to experiance it. Maybe its the faires or the films, either way People want to know about this, so we do what we can to share, to keep the craft alive.

Welcome to the site. share as you will, we rarely agree on everything here, but we welcome any smith of any level of training, or skill.

Steve

[monstermetal]

I am self taught and happen to agree with your opinion. Unfortunately my professional career got in the way of an apprenticeship and now it simply is not an option (although I would love to spend several years working with a master smith) By the time I realized I really should work with someone skilled for an extended period I had already been running my own successful shop for years and it seems pretty silly to say you should close up a shop that's doing a few hundred grand a year worth of work to go learn the fundamentals. I do tell every aspiring blacksmith who asks that my biggest regret was not seeking out a master to learn from early on and that If I had it to do over that's exactly what I would do. Self taught is not a death sentence, it is just adds decades to the learning curve.

[Timothy Miller]

In the United States there is really no formal training for blacksmiths available. There are art programs and courses one can take but there is not really a program directed towards turning out Blacksmiths as trades people. I would love to have credentials but no one is giving them out. I learned by doing made a whole lot of mistakes. Broke machines did some work that could have been better and cut some corners out of ignorance. Now I have 20 years in I I am a decent smith. I am also shocked by some of the stupid stuff that passes for technique around here. But there is more emphasis not hurting other members feelings than quality of information.

[Frank Turley]

I started in the U.S. in 1963 as a part-time farrier's apprentice. I worked with two hot farriers (they had forges). When I wanted to expand into blacksmith work, I really did not know where to turn. Blacksmithing was moribund in the 1960's. I found a few shops, but they had mostly converted into welding shops or auto repair shops. Sometimes, an old forge would be in the corner, forgotten, and covered with cobwebs. There was also a negative attitude among the handful smiths that I ran across. They wanted to "carry their secrets to the grave." I met one old man who said, "Swages? Fullers? I have no need for them. I do everything with the hammer!" I knew that was a crock.

I could turn shoes and make simple farriers' tools. What helped me to self-learn was running across Schwarzkopf's "Plain and Onamental Forging" and the Rural Industries books out of London, England, "The Blacksmith's Craft" and "Wrought Ironwork." Then, mucho mucho practice and obstacles to overcome. One of my students, a Dane, taught me how to strike, Continental style, for which I was grateful. Little by little, I was able to put together a smithy with its compliment of tools and equipment.

Although a formal course or apprenticeship would have been a big help, learning on my own has been a wonderful journey.

[bigred]

Steve - trades and trades protectionism had good cause - it maintains and guarantees standards and quality.

hear what you say TM - seems like there is an opening in th US for Smithing trainers - it is the land of seeing a niche and filling it after all :D

The necessary course materials are widely available in those English speaking countries who do train smiths and it would only take an entreuprenuerial spirit to intro formal training - if this site is anything to go by there is certainly the interest in your neck of the woods.

[bigred]

Monster - know exactly where you are coming from - hence the tail end of my post re opportunity for mature individuals. Some of the most talented peolple I have ever worked with have been self taught but almost universally there are anomalous gaps and lacks in their knowledge which can prove extremely hazardous - one instance of a hydro-carbon based grease and an oxygen cylinder springs to mind.

But not only that - for the trade to maintain its status as a stand alone craft among the other metal trades, it is important that those who call themselves blacksmiths are Blacksmiths - formally trained, in a structured way, to turn out a quality end-product. Hobbyists are one thing, and fortuitous circumstances such as yours are a wee bit unique, but I would still argue for the trade system but somehow re-jigged to allow expedited training for mature apprentices

[Rich Hale]

i also agree that you should get good at what you wish to get good at,,then we kind of separate..

I would guess that for the most part folks on here are not realistically looking to smith for a living. they are either working at another task for money or if they discover how much money they will make as a relativley unskilled smith they soon will be working at something else..And there is the growing numbers of hobby smiths, some of them become pretty good artists with metal. i have suggest on here for along time that new folks seek groups or one on one instruction to shorten the learning curve. Most of the time that just does not happen. Some o f them are feeding families, They may only have a few hours or less a week for metal work as life is in the way of the hobby. And of course some are dead serious learners that will learn as much of the craft as they can. It would seem there would be a ready market for qualified instructors to help these folks but I doubt if the classes would be well attended. Frank has classes but I do not know how they are filling up. (if I was starting out I would be at his door) Brian Brazeal travels a bit and has workshops. not sure how fast they fill up either. England has high standards for smiths and farriers. it has never been established here. Not saying it would not work or is not needed,,,

[Loneforge]

I am a hobbyist myself,an aspiring blade smith. I am a skilled tradesperson and have worked with my hands all my life. I most certainly know the rules to safety but on the same token don't know smithing that well. I am one of the quote unquote self taught smith's you speak of. I live in Eastern Canada and there are no others here local to learn from. The learning curve has increased immensely since I joined this sight. I most certainly appreciate all direction that I've been given by the members of this site.
I encourage any and all who can get together with professionals to do so and learn their techniques. I am not so fortunate. My work has improved and so have my techniques.........Being taught by a professional is good on one hand, on the other, that individual may be all thumbs and never achieve what a skilled self taught smith can achieve.....Just one opinion. Other than what I have learned here.....all reading and chat, I am a self taught ......learning bladesmith. What would my work like if I was taught by someone else.......probably look like their work! Being self taught is not all bad.....Unless you have no experience with tools and their potential....If such is the case......Fire and hot steel are probably not the proper choice. Bottom line.... know your personal limitations and seek help when needed!

If we all play safe, we all go home at the end of the day!

[Francis Trez Cole]

I grew up cooking and went to school for the art. My love changed many years ago, So I used what I learned in cooking and applied the same learning to smithing. I still sit down and read the directions when working with a new tool. I have seen many home made tools that could kill you very fast. The were patterned after tools from the 1850's. but be careful what you wish for. Remember judging of art work is subjective I have cooked great meals in competitions only to walk away empty handed for my efforts because one judge did not like curry .

The person that is setting the standard in this country is Mark Aspery with the grate project. It is a great focus for each to make the tooling and complete the task.

Not to say they do not fill a market but the metal shops that build gates out of a catalog. So it is an up hill battle to educate the public to the difference in work and material. I get calls weekly can you fix my wrought iron gate only to get there to find a aluminum gate that has been powder coated. Then there is the look on the persons face that has no clue to what they spent thousands of dollars on it. King architectural has done a great job in this country selling there product and marketing it to the Architects who do the designing. There is nothing wrong with it but the consumer should know what they are getting. Unfortunately we live in a society where even wal mart carry metal house hold items and that is what the consumer uses as a gauge to determinate a price.

Education not only the craftsman but the public.

[Marksnagel]

I am self taught in the art of blacksmithing and still learning. What I have learned, I have learned here on IFI. My safety training I have learned over the many years of my life from my father, the military and employment.
Yes, some things need a license but If formal training and a government license was a requirement for everything in life as it sounds like you are saying on your side of the pond, then nobody would ever aspire to do anything. We would find or be programmed into one avenue of life and there we would sit.

Please don't misunderstand me. I totally agree that when doing anything potentially dangerous there should be training. I like my extremities, innerds, hearing and sight as much as anyone and do all that is possible to protect myself and others. But to mandate that everything I do must be certified would cause me to sit here at the computer all the time and answer........ no wait, I haven't been trained to do this either. :)

Mark <><

[bigred]

Point taken Rich.

I think it is me who is labouring under the misaprehension that this site was a trade site when - mostly - it is a hobbyist and metal artist site.

Nowt wrong with that, a place for those interested to find out more and to improve their knowledge and skills, also fair play to those old pros who are happy to come and share their knowledge and experience - I think it reflects the fact that there is no formal Blacksmith training in any orgasnised way over the pond - over here where there is still a well developed trade system most 'smiths wouldn't tell anyone other than another 'smith anything ;) and even then it's unlikely they would give up their own little tips an' tricks learned the hard way and jealously guarded.

I suppose also that I have a little bit of a jaundiced eye having just lost out on a pretty lucrative railing and gate job to a mob I know to be no more than tackers and welders' mates. Customers unfortunately do not really appreciate the difference between a gate that, with a little annual maintenance, will still be standing in 50 years, and one which will be weeping rust from welded joints hidden behind collars, within 18 months. Try explaining this and they simply think you are trying to bad mouth your competition; try explaining that you will manufacture each component by hand and fit it to a proportionally hormonic piece, using materials and methods which will ensure the longevity of your work - and they think you are just trying to pump the price. Down the line the customer realises that you weren't Bull Dusting him when his gates, manufactured from cheap Indian/Chinese machine forgings, bleed rust everywhere and begin to sag or lose shape as a result of poor mechanical design, innappropriate material etc.

The unfortunate result (at least here), is that to compete, small owner operators such as I have to dive in and swim in that same semi-skilled pool, so that now the vast majority of railings gates and associated external ornamental work consists primarily of the aforementioned mass produced machine forgings welded into (mostly unsuitable) frames. The fact that we are formally trained is at least some gaurantee of quality, but when the lines become blurred, quality is always the first casualty. IMHO unless someone can provide evidence of competence verified by a recognised trade body then they shouldn't be allowed public liability insurance.

[tomhw]

Well before the thirteen colonies won their independence from England the guild system proved itself unable to meet the demand for craftsmen in all trades. Children were still apprenticed to masters but in many instances craftsmen opened shops without any credentials, at all. Their abilities were judged by their customers, and success in the business was the reward. This is still true now.

Check your tag line: "Those who suppress freedom always do so in the name of law and order." Free men will and act.

[Colin Davies]

I live in Eastern Canada and there are no others here local to learn from.

Loneforge, are you aware of John Little in NS, and Paul Fontaine in NB? I don't know if Paul offers lessons, but John is a top-notch instructor and taught part of the course in Haliburton when I was there. I realize neither of them might necessarily qualify as “nearby", but they are options to think about.

In regards to the general topic, I've had one semester of instruction and now... I consider myself an apprentice under myself. It's an awkward position, but about the best I can hope for without extensive travel outside Canada. Luckily I've had some experience working with detonable gas mixes and such hazards in the past, but my knowledge of traditional blacksmithing techniques is sorely lacking. As soon as I'm financially and professionally established, I have a long list of courses and workshops I want to take advantage of. It's sometimes difficult to know exactly what to pursue, though, as blacksmithing in Canada exists in a complete regulatory vacuum.

[ckent]

I like this topic and have had the opportunity to see both sides. Not so much blacksmithing as other trades but I imagine that the issues are the similar. Proper training and safety is so important. However I have seen both good and bad come out of trades and trades protectionism ( i think were talking about the same thing here). Everything can always be made more safe, but at what cost? and where do we draw the line? It seems like every year more of theses rules come out which while they are making it a little bit safer its making the jobs are lot more expensive and there is less and less who can afford to do it this way. life is full of risks. These develop character and a tolerance of pain. Anyone whos into motorcycles will know this. And every now and then someone will get burned. Its sucks...... big time..... especially when you end up in a wheelchair or dead. Or even worse, when it happens to someone you were responsible for. I have had more friends and co workers get seriously injured on the job because they had been taught to follow their orders and do what their boss tells them to rather than think for themselves. whats that saying? common sense is not so common? I cant even count the times a superior has misinformed either myself or a co worker in order to protect their knowledge/ trade secrets and or position. Kinda sucks but its been a good way to to figure out who are the sheep are and who the shepherds. (Thank you I forge iron contributors). I love hearing why things get done the way they do. If someone cant explain that than theyre probably full of it. There is always going to be someone who sees fault with something that someone else is doing and chirp up to try and legislate more rules and regulations to make everything better. and at what cost? Should we all wear hard hats safety glasses with additional safety shields, Kevlar gloves and cow hide? I had someone tell me last week that she thinks so. Kinda funny how someone should chip me on why she should have to pay for it if I get hurt while shes sucking on a cigarette ( whos going to pay for her hospital bills) My taxes. Sorry if im ranting but this has been a touchy subject for me. There are a lot of us out here who do not have proper blacksmithing training amongst other things. So lets do something about it. If people out there have knowledge about how to make things better than please share it. especially if its something that they are passionate about and will save lives. If someone out there feels the way I do about this...... and im sure they do, than it is their duty to keep pushing this thing forwards. Lead, follow or get out of the way. This site is powerful tool that everyone can share. Ive noticed that people here on this forum have been posting things how not to do things. great. This helps. lets not make the same mistakes.( I had no idea about the grease issue). I wish that I had more to offer with this trade and when i do you can bet that i'll be posting a lot more of my experiences. Its up to all of us to keep pushing this trade forwards. Not some union XXXXX teacher whos stuck in the classroom teaching snot nosed punks to make tool boxes because he nailed himself in the knee with a sledge hammer. sorry ranting again. Its up to us to educate the ministry and public on how to make things reasonably safe and help set standards............. not them telling us how to do something that they have neither seen or done or have to turn a profit on. Tickets are great but theyre not for everyone. can you imagine what the world would be like if we were not allowed to work on our homes, gardens, vehicles and equipment without having a proper ticket? I am a carpenter and have had a lot of customers hire the other guy... the one whos doing work without a permit, not to code and totally shotty. Its hilarious that they call me to after the fact to fix things and still dont want to do it proper. But this is the decision that they make. Just once Id like to see someone take responsibility for hiring the wrong person instead of playing the poor victim card. We have laws to protect society from these shoemakers..... I apolligize to any professional shoe makers out there. there is no stopping people from going to those guys if thats what they want to do. The law will deal with them as best it can when their work falls apart. The victim will get compensated. hopefully. And all the law abiding safety cautious professionals out there will have more rules and road blocks in their way to jump over. ( also character development). The guys who dont care about the rules or doing things right will always be in the same spot that they are. and most customers not all will always be looking for the cheapest easiest route. end rant.

[bigfootnampa]

Well I am way too mature to even think of wasting any time getting any sort of certifications! I have a lot of experience in many crafts/arts that is useful though. I admit to gappy skills but I fill the holes when I need to with practice, self-directed study, and the help of experts. I rarely need much instruction... a ten minute demo is usually sufficient for me to grab and go! I have done world class work in woodturning, woodcarving, metalsmithing, faux painting, finishing, and even some pretty cool blacksmithing! I am an innovative leatherworker as well! I do top professional level photography! I LOVE the American way!!! Where you are free to rise according to your abilities. I can appreciate the advantages of the more European system and even the very rigid German style where even woodcarvers must serve apprenticeships and be certified! I think time has shown that the freer rise allowed and even encouraged in America has MORE advantages! If you are unable to sell the work that you'd rather do invent a NEW style or product that will sell!!! Blaming "the system" or your competitors is blocking your personal path to success! You are VERY unlikely to change the whole economic system... so focusing on this approach is a certain recipe for failure! Focus on what you CAN do and free yourself from the dogma that you have been taught! There IS a way forward and your task is to find your personal path upward!

[Fe-Wood]

This topic, I have thought about considerably. Bigred, it almost sounds like you are trying to regulate your competition into a set of standards the public is not willing to buy. Although I agree there should be verifiable levels of proficiency, who regulates it and how does one keep out fraud? I have been a licensed contractor for years and I find people with the same license who have hardly enough experience to take on the jobs they take on.

Good work always rises to the top. Educating the public on what is good work is what needs to happen.

[VaughnT]

Great food for thought here!

While I certainly agree that standards should be maintained, I can't help but wonder how one would go about that. The American Bladesmith Society has a structured set of rules to earn your Journeyman and Master status. Maybe we could adopt something similar and meet at Quad State every year to officially certify folks and authorize their JM or MS stamps? That would certainly be better than nothing, even if there are thousands of 'smiths' out in the world that never get the stamp.

As for training, I just don't see how that can work. As far as I can tell, there are no schools for blacksmithing and smithing is such a small niche market/skill that you just can't put people to work doing it all day. In olden times, apprentices were kept busy making nails or cutting stock or making generic parts for later fitting, but what could you do with an apprentice today? How would you structure the class? How many times could you practice upsetting a bar or forming a tenon all the while having nothing really practical to apply that knowledge to? Does that make sense?

I'm certainly keen on the idea of establishing a set of standards and holding people to them if they want to join the club. The ABS has hundreds of journeymen and masters, but that doesn't stop thousands of other knife-makers from making truly stunning pieces on their own. What it does do, though, is raise the bar of what can be expected in the eyes of the educated consumer.

[bigred]

Precisely my point Tom

In the environment to which you refer all of the 'smiths would be using exactly the same processes and materials, therefore real knowledge and skill would be the sole arbiter of quality - good well trained 'smiths would get all the work and self-styled 'smiths would get what the trained man didn't want or couldn't handle. In an environment where all you had was the self-styled 'smith, well it was 'Hobson's choice' really.

The difference is, these days there are many engineering processess and solutions which may all produce a reasonably similar outcome, some of which are cheap, tacky, not well engineered and certainly not as durable as others - but at least on paper appear so. If the client isn't skilled at reading eng drg's, then it is easy for them to fall into the trap of cheap facsimiles produced by semi skilled operators - if I can't compete with the MIG welding brigade - then I can't afford to train an apprentice and so pseuds are bad for the trade when operating in direct competition with trained artisans.

Cheapo re the tag line - fighting to maintain standards within a trade I love isn't suppressing freedom - it is protecting the rights and freedoms of those artisans who have put so much into learning, developing and maintaining the correct methodology, skills and practices of this trade, from the unscrupulous pseuds who would usurp the title Blacksmith.

[Ten Hammers]

" In too many instances, in everything from grinding wheels to electrical safety, opinion seems to be given the same weight as knowledge, that is a dangerous thing. "

BigRed. if I understand the basic jist of your thread this is indeed an issue. One thing will be said for the most part. If false information is posted here someone will likely challenge the information. I have passed a few tests and have welded (briefly) x-ray. I have welded a lot of other stuff from car crushers to hand trucks (professionally). In smithing I am LARGE self taught but this self taught is from observing others in many instances. I have however burned my share of coal, charcoal and gas making mistakes (which indeed taught me).

It is refreshing to see that your observations here are accurate. This is for a large part a very well orchestrated group of friends and many skilled smiths come here. I am honored to be in their presence and a few have been to my shop. I have been to some of their shops but not a lot. Belly up to the fire and grab a cup. Welcome.

[macbruce]

Point taken Rich.

IMHO unless someone can provide evidence of competence verified by a recognised trade body then they shouldn't be allowed public liability insurance.

I can't agree on this Red. To invite government to inact such a thing would be contrary to my beliefs. I've had no formal training aside from welding and built stair rails high an low over the years. If they didn't meet code then they would have failed inspection then I would either bring it up to code or eat it.....Now if I burn the place down while installing it insurance is kinda handy..... :lol:
Code writers can be full of it, eg; not long ago they were thinking about enacting a rule whereby all railings would have no horizontal elements making it so a brain dead moron could step up and fall over the rail and it didn't come to pass....WHEW....
In my state the space between balusters used to be 6'' or less which is dicey enough, then they made it 9'' which is insane. My parents bought a condo in 1982 on the 17th floor in Denver with vertical balusters a little under 9'' apart so she wisely put up chicken mesh to keep the Grandchildren from becoming memories. The code is now 4''-....
Point being if an inspector passes a rail for instance that is over 4'' spaces and someone falls through and gets hurt It's the inspector's butt not mine, at least on this side of the pond..... B)

[bigred]

Hi McB,

I am sure that you will get me when I say that life has two kinds of people - sayers and doers - most of the peeps on this site I have run across are doers and would, given the opportunity, make excellent 'smiths. But, if you had noticed earlier subsequent to my o2 and grease remark that there are those - even on a well run and informative site such as this - who would , in the absence of knowledge to the contrary, perhaps grease an o2 reg stem. I seen the remnants of this once in a boiler shop on a Gold Mine in South Africa in the 1980's - fragments. No trained artisan would do such a thing or many other things like it,

Would you be quite happy that a self-taught operator hung a balcony that would hold the lives of your daughter or grandchildren? or would you prefer someone who had a good grasp of the mechanical dynamics of such a thing and what its load safety requirements would be - all of these parameters are not stipulated in code, so one has to rely on the knowledge skill and experience of whoever is doing the job.

[ckent]

Thanks big red I'll remember that when I get and o/a rig. Seems kinda silly that the safety board hasnt gotten its hand on that one and made it mandatory to have some kinda warning on the regulator.

[bigred]

Thanks big red I'll remember that when I get and o/a rig. Seems kinda silly that the safety board hasnt gotten its hand on that one and made it mandatory to have some kinda warning on the regulator.

Not necessary in the UK as, in industry at least, the only people insured to use oxy-Acetylene plant are those trained to do so. It's much the same as Acetylene dissociation. Most untrained peeps do not know that there is a max pressure that you can draw off dissolved acetylene without it spontaneously exploding - those who find this out the hard way aren't around for the anecdote :wacko:

[Rich Hale]

Red a coiuple of things here jump out at me: Have you seen any of the work of our "this side of the pond" smiths that did not have the training and certification program that you have in place? Ian fromm youir side has..have youi gotten his thoughts on our abilities?
And,,since you mentioned it. An elevated walk way in a hotel in Kansas City fell years ago and killed, if I remember correctly, 18 poeple. This was designed by trained folks and constructed to meet codes and requirements of the time. Which I relate to illustrate that at times standards and expectations do not meet needs in all cases. Yoiu have strict guidelines on farriers that require long hard work to prepare a person to work at thata craft. Here anyone can say they are one and go to work. it does not take long for those to learn their shortcomings and seek the knowledge and abilitiies they need or folks will no longer hire them. And the flip side of that is that some folks that go to good schools and learn all they can in this area never really become wot they envisioned. The ABS was mentioned above. They indeed have an in place training and testing program that for some works and for some it does not. I have seen blades by both back yard hobbiests and abs Mastersmiths, that it wouild take a panel of qualified,(who wouild that be?) Judges to try and see any difference in fit finish overal quality and perhaps even desireability. It is hard to paint a group with one color one brush and be correct.