Is a rough surface and inclusions the new trend in knifemaking?

[David Einhorn]

I hope that this is not too dumb a question, but I have noticed more and more photographic examples of knifes being shared on the forum with rough surfaces and inclusions. Is this the latest trend in finishing knife blades? Maybe some ABS folks can contribute their thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

[bigfootnampa]

Who knows about trends? I know that I prefer a rougher finish that is artfully done to a polished look. I tend to deliberately preserve the rough forged look where I can do so without harming my edge performance. I do this for most all edged tools not just knives. I have danced on both sides of this aisle and I like where I am now... but I appreciate good work of most any style. I have sanded my woodworks to the finest satin finishes in the past but now I much prefer a rougher drawknife or gouge finish. Straight off the tool looks have a certain impressionistic appeal that is hard to beat! This is certainly not a new thing. Michaelangelo and Van Gogh created works like this! I can sometimes make good use of the strong contrast between ground and polished bevels/edges and rougher as forged surfaces!

[Rich Hale]

My knife world may be a bit different than a lot of the folks posting their work on here. I have cut my show attendance to two now. And at those shows their is a wide variation of styles of knves and the kinds of finishes they exhibit. At the jan show in Vegas the maker at the next table had maybe over a hundred knives he made from 1095 and had a medium dark patina that really looked nice, They ranged from kitchen knives to neck knives to filet and skinners. They were well made and I like the look alot. His heat treat seemed spot on and the method he used is one that I would have done myself. He sold very few and his prices were so low I was worried for him. I wrote all of that as that has been a fairly common thing at the shows I attend. Those with the finest finish to the blade and carefull attenntion to fit and finish sell more often and for more money than others. I am a fan of the work of Daniel Winkler. google to see his work. His blades give that look of wot I call raw steel, but if you look close the finish is really nice. The overall look is simply oustanding to me. At the last Blade show in Atlanta I went to I looked for him to see a knife up close. He was sold out. I cannot remember seeing any blade at any show with scale or large scale pits on the blade. Youir shop your rules, Make wot you like.

[ThomasPowers]

"New trend" as in the Neotribal movement of about 20 years ago? As I recall the "Knives XYZ" books of 30 years ago would have an example every now and then too.

Perhaps it is merely surfacing more. Part of it may be the way things are handled by the media---Remember the terrible tanto "trend" where *everything* had to be a tanto---the "Viking Tanto" was instrumental in me losing weight!

It's amusing to see all the etched wrought iron hardware on blades made to resembles ones when such things would have been given as high a polish as possible; but that's probably just due to both: "it's old it must be crude" combined with "the one in the museum that was buried under a manure pile for 150 years looks like that so that's the way they must of looked brand spanking new".

Personally I like the etched wrought iron look---but I would never attribute it to an earlier time period!

[Steve Sells]

Sadly some dont see a difference between an as forged look and the pitted steel and scale from poor heat control. maybe its just ignorance? For the most part, it looks like they are in too much of a hurry again

[Justin Carnecchia]

I seem to see this mostly from people starting out forging blades. I think these people believe that because they are forging a knife it has to be done entirely with a hammer. For me forging the blade with a hammer is just step one in a long process of making a knife. I have seen forge finished knives that I like but to often they just look sloppy. To me the whole point of a custom knife is to get a product better than what a factory is making. Better in performance and especially in fit and finish. Recently someone posted a damascus blade here that had very course scratches on it. I don't mean to knock the guy's work because I know he worked hard on it, (it isn't easy forging damascus by hand) but if you are going to the trouble of making damascus, something only done for visual appeal, why would'nt you take the time to finish it. It seemed like the knife was only halfdone.

I tend to agree with David, if you look at the what the ABS smiths are doing you will see that they are setting the bar high for what can be done with forged blades, and fit and finish is everyrthing.
I have nothing against rough finished blades,and have seen some beautiful ones, but is it being done because the maker prefers it or just because he doesn't feel like sanding and is in a hurry to finish? Or Maybe he thinks that is what a forged blade is all about, in which case I would suggest looking at the ABS site.

I realize as I am about to post this that many of these makers are surely new to bladesmithing, and proud of their work. I don't mean to detract from this, they should be proud. That being said the only way we develop is through criticism and honest self observation. If you have posted one of the blades in question please don't take this as an attack on your work or person but rather as an honest criticism intended to help you better your work. I have been proud of every knife I have made, especially the early ones, but it is by honestly looking at what is wrong with them that I hope to improve.

[ThomasPowers]

Part of the Neo-Tribal meme was to try to make blades that need minimal stock removal. Less than 10% was a common goal; so bevels forged down to the edge so that minimal "sharpening would need to be done. Many of the masters could do this with a beautiful hammered surface needing no ornamentation. Others could have profited from a knifemaking course taught at the state penn...

Another part was to do so with minimal tooling so the adobe forge burning charcoal and the improvised anvil---or even a rock sometimes! It was a great way to get people started with minimal investment---hard to say "I can't afford to do it" to a guy doing lovely work with a rock, one hammer, and a hole in the ground forge...

With time the Neo Tribal movement, like most, slowed and branched; but they were great times during it's hay-day!

[JNewman]

While I am not a fan of rough looking knives or tools, I prefer an as forged look on tools over a overly buffed corners washed out look or roughly ground. It can be tough to do a NICE as forged look.
Look at the chisels on the face book site for the video just posted. The chisels are not ground all over and in the socket you can see some minor hammer marks and there is some light pitting from scale but they are very nice looking tools and obviously hand made. I contrast these to some chisels that a local timber frame supply tool company had some local smiths make and wanted me to make after they no longer wanted to deal with him. These chisels had the taper in the blade forged and then a pipe socket that he had produced using a die was mig welded on. They were then ground and buffed all over by some Mennonites that he paid to do that and make the handles. They were bright and shiny but to me that did not say hand made with care as all the crispness was buffed out.

[ThomasPowers]

De gustibus non disputandum est or different strokes for different folks. There are lots of styles I dislike and would refuse to make---like the kludgey "american tanto" with the hacked off point.

Where I would argue is where a "style" gets in the way of usability.

[Stormcrow]

I'm not an ABS member, but I do make forge finished knives. I'd say that what you ask isn't a dumb question, but it does give an opportunity for explanation and for some return questions.

For one, I'm not sure I follow what you mean by "inclusion" in this case. I would consider an inclusion to be something like a piece of slag mixed in with the steel made from a bloom, but the way you're using it sounds like perhaps you are meaning the gray scale oxide? In which case, I don't see many blades with a forge finish where the scale is left on. My method is to soak the blade in vinegar to eat the scale off, leaving the texture behind.

I would say that yes there are a growing number of knifemakers who are playing around with using the forge texture in their final product. I can't speak for everyone, but I can give my reasons.

1. Utility - The forge finish is very durable and hard to scratch. If it gets rusty, you just rub it down with some 150 grit sandpaper and it looks like it did when it was new. It makes for a good working knife finish.

2. Aesthetics - It is interesting looking and does not break up the flow of lines in the blade. My eye looks first to the outline of a knife, and that is where most of the beauty derives for me. Anything that breaks up a good flow of lines detracts from that. A well-executed forge finish provides visual interest without messing with the flow. I'm not a big fan of damascus in part because for a lot of it the pattern breaks up the flow of lines in the profile and jars in my mind. I do like san mai and low-layer count damascus because it tends to not break up the flow of lines while adding visual interest.

3. Appreciation - I have a hard time enjoying something useful and beautiful like a knife or a car if I can't envision using it. If I see a very high-end knife with damascus, mammoth ivory, gold, engraving, etc, my breath may be taken away by the skill and the beauty, but there's always that nagging part (which gets stronger as I get older) of, "I can't imagine doing anything with that except displaying it." I prefer Chevelles over Lamborghinis, rat rods over billet rods, and a well-done forge finished blade over a well-done damascus one.

Neo-Tribal Metalsmithing, which is the school of thought from which I approach my bladesmithing, started up in part as a way of having fun with making knives when making them the same old way over and over was getting to be a drag. It was also a reaction against high end "safe queens" and as a way of making quality knives without having to lay down an investment in thousands of dollars in equipment. It's very similar to the rise of the "rat rod" movement in hot rods, which was a reaction against "trailer queens" that were loaded down with billet accessories and paint jobs that cost multiple tens of thousands of dollars yet would barely be driven. Build it yourself, build it to be driven, and freak out the normals a bit. :)

I see many forged blades that are indistinguishable from stock removal blades. That is fine as long as it well-executed. But I don't want to make my blades look like they were ground from a bar if I have hammered them into shape instead. I like to acknowledge how they were made, and a growing number of knifemakers feel the same. That may range from stainless san mai with the spine left as-forged and the rest polished and etched, to the entire blade being forge finished like Raymond Richard and Tim Lively do.

Forge finish also separates the look of the blade from the standard 20th/21st century American style of handmade knife. I like things that have a timeless look to it, and a forge finish helps with that.

At the same time, it can lead to, or derive from, laziness. I have seen some horrifically sloppy hammer work on forge finished blades, and the attendantly poor jobs of fitting handles and guards, all in the name of making it look "primitive". Primitive does not equate crude. A good forge finish shows the knife maker's skill with a hammer, and if it is covered with missed hammer strokes, it is obvious that he has not mastered forging to shape yet.

Just like any other aspect of style in hand craftsmanship, it can be a benefit or a detriment, depending entirely on execution of the individual craftsman.

[Robakyo]

Stormcrow, Wow! That sounds like a manifesto. I think that you have made many good points. I find your work to be well crafted and visually appealing. I am still in that "missed hammer strokes" category, but I keep at it. Winners never quit, and quitters never win.

Robert


P.S.-I had written a longer response, but upon hitting Return, suddenly the page was unavailable, and everything previously written went bye bye.

[VaughnT]

At the same time, it can lead to, or derive from, laziness. I have seen some horrifically sloppy hammer work on forge finished blades, and the attendantly poor jobs of fitting handles and guards, all in the name of making it look "primitive". Primitive does not equate crude. A good forge finish shows the knife maker's skill with a hammer, and if it is covered with missed hammer strokes, it is obvious that he has not mastered forging to shape yet.

And that is why I don't advocate the primitive or tribal style. Daniel Winkler makes some great knives that have the forge-finish. Same for Tai Goo.

But the overwhelming majority of people that I see trying it are just using it to mask their laziness. Primitive man build the pyramids without modern tools. They built aqueducts and miles of roads. Machu Pichu and the Nazca Lines went up without any help from Caterpillar or John Deere.

Why? Because those craftsman had patience. Every time I see a knife with a pock-marked blade and a giant gap between the parts, I can't help but wonder what it could have been had the maker not been so keen to get it onto the internet as quickly as possible. Sometimes it only takes another hour with the sandpaper. Sometimes it takes leaving the project to sit for a week while you think about where you want it to go.

[ramsies11]

i dont like rough looks on anything i carry. i want it to look hand forged but not like a kid made it cold with his daddys ballpeen. i think a good polish is better over a rough sorta thing, not only for looks but cutting ability. its easier to slide off of smooth glass than to slide off of sand paper. the same concept applies. it takes more stength to cut through somthing when your blade is rough as opposed to cutting through somthing when the blade is smooth..... just my two-bits

[bigfootnampa]

Well I sure have seen some poorly made blades too... but I've seen some REAL JUNK that was all stock removal and polished quite a bit also! Because a look can be badly done is no reason to avoid it. If we all followed such a dictum we'd have no styles left to make at all! I really like the knives that Dave Budd makes! They include some rough surfaces but I'd hardly consider them lazy work! I have seen a LOT of polished, file decorated, fancy handled knives that I wouldn't glance twice at... but something tugs at me when I see Dave's work... I LIKE it! I am a user type knife owner and have mighty little of the collector in my genes so maybe that is what colors my judgement... but I know what I like!

[bigfootnampa]

I once showed at a woodcarvers holiday show and had a few knives there that I had made. The turnout was low and things were very slow. One of the carvers whose booth was near me specialized in very miniature work, carving woodland faces on willow twigs etc. He eyed a small spiky detail carving knife on my table and asked to try it out. After carving with it for several hours he came to me and wanted to deal. He said that the combination of a fine long edge and very small tip with a fairly stiff blade allowed him better control than any of the knives that he currently owned. Since this was a well established carver whose name is well known in the woodcarving community I was flattered and very happy to sell him the knife! I would much prefer such a sale to seeing my work amassed into some collectors hoard. That knife was BEAUTIFUL, though only the kind of user that it was made for would have noticed!

[Rich Hale]

For me an inclusion on a rough finished monosteel blade is a piece of slag imbedded in the finished surface. I have seen pics of knives posted on this site with slag in them. It is only a wee bit worse than if they got the slag out and left the pit in the blade where it came from. this does not of course mean it is a bad blade or that the person that made it is never going to improve.To me it is a step and I hope there are lots more steps in the right direction.And While we are at this The knives that Stormcrow has posted pics of on here have that nice forged look and attention to detail that makes an attractive knife. Those wishing to make those kinds of knives may want to post a pic of his work in the shop as a goal. Not as a pattern but as a finish to work towards.

[Justin Carnecchia]

I seem to be getting a sense that to some people a knife with good fit and finish somehow diminishes it's useability, it certainly does not. Maybe what we are talking about is cost of the knife? That is something different. Are makers using a forge finish to keep the cost of their work down, in hopes that their knives are used? I make every one of my knives to be used, and all have the finest fit and finish my abilty allows. If my knife has a hamon that its owner finds beautiful and so choses not to use it that's their business. Personally the knife I use everyday (over 8 hours a day) is one I finished to over 2500g. I can no longer see the activity in the hamon and it has a nice blue grey patina, and no scratches or hammer marks. Every once in while I wipe it down with Flitz and it looks like new again, mostly I just leave it.
I can think of a number of makers known for using knives, but they would never allow sloppy, scratched knives to leave their shop.

I have seen forge finish blades that were stunning, but these all had amazing attention to the details, and fit and finish was top notch. To often it seems like an excuse to avoid finish work.

[Stormcrow]

Justin - Whatever method of construction is chosen, good workmanship is still good workmanship and poor workmanship is poor workmanship. But a particular style or finish choice doesn't automatically equate sloppiness. To turn it around, it could easily be argued that doing a lot of grinding on a knife is often a way of getting around and concealing poor hammer control. "Aw, don't worry about it; it'll go away when you grind it." A forge finish tells you exactly what the smith did with a hammer, with no way to hide it. In reality, that isn't to say that everyone who grinds their knife clean is bad with a hammer, nor does it mean that everyone who makes a forge finished blade is lazy and sloppy.

I'm also not trying to say good fit and finish diminishes usability. To continue with the car analogy, a rat rod and a billet rod may both be just as driveable, but to a large segment of the public, the $40,000 paint job on the billet rod is something they would hate to damage, and will therefor baby it and limit the driving to perfect weather and special occasions. The rat rod in primer or patina will more often be driven frequently and a lot of times be the owner's daily driver. In the meantime, the billet rodders think the rat rods look like haphazard junk shlocked together by untrained monkeys, while the rat rodders think the billet rods are giant Hot Wheels toys for overgrown snobby kids who look down their noses at anything not built the way they like it. And both groups are right to a certain degree, depending entirely on which individual they're thinking about. :)

I read a book a number of years ago by Ed "Big Daddy" Roth, creator of fiberglass-bodied custom hot rods like the Beatnik Bandit. When talking about his early years in hot rodding, he said that at the hot rod gatherings everyone would try to outdo each other in fancying up their rides, chroming more and more. I think Ed said he was the first to chrome the gears in his transmission. There comes a certain point in making a custom knife where one is metaphorically "chroming their transmission gears". That appeals to a number of knife enthusiasts; I can't picture using it and therefor can't picture enjoying it and therefor I prefer something else. If a person likes that, more power to them. I may think it's kind of a silly thing to do, but it's their life, hobby, and money.

That being said, nothing you describe doing on your knives would reach "chroming your transmission gears" in my book. I am with you in that I would like to see more well-done forge finished blades than badly done forge finished blades. But a lot of them are beginners who are drawn to the style as being accessible to their equipment and skill level. I do know some makers who consistently make work that shows they can't hit straight with a hammer or shape a handle with any kind of symmetry, and they sell for multiple hundreds of dollars. It bugs me. But my approach is to simply produce as well-made of a blade as I can and put the pictures up for the world to see. If they can see the difference in the craftsmanship, I did what I wanted. If they can't, either I need to improve, or they don't have the eye to tell good work from bad.

Rich - I'm very humbled by that. I have taken inspiration from so many tremendously skilled knife makers over the years that it is awesome to be at the point where one says that I am a source of inspiration. Thank you!

[Woody]

A while back I was told by a consumate bladesmith that the only difference between a $50 knife and a $500 knife was finish, and fittings. I prefer a highly finished knife. Think of it as marketability, which would you pay more for a shiny Corvette or a Chevy that looked like it had been used in a demo derby?

[Norseman C.B.]

As I posted on the Bladesmith's Forum earlier
This also is yet another classic example of
Opinions and ********* If you you like it FINE !!
if you don't OH WELL !!

[Nick Rossi]

Well, I guess I'm an ABS member, but I don't know what the party line on forged finishes is.

Forged or forged-in texture can make or break a knife in the same way any esthetic choice can. If done right, I like the look. If I can see that the maker burned the crap out of it, or sucks at forging, I don't.

I do it all the time, and to make it look right takes more skill than satin finishing the flats.

[Stormcrow]

If you you like it FINE !! if you don't OH WELL !!

Seems like a pretty good summation. :)

[Robert Yates]

For some rough is better when it comes to forging it is coming to age if you will many like it others do not . it does have it's place . I have some folks that want it for field knives where other folks want the mantle stlye or show knives .

Sam

[Kendall P]

I don't think it is a bad thing to have critique about knife makeing in the knife makeing forum. This is not endorsing people to be rude or unnessarilly negative, knife makeing is a long process and something which the craftsman puts allot of himself/herself into - It's understandable if they are a little highly strung about their work`s reception - However i think it is good that high standards and quality finishes are expected and encouraged by more experianced craftsmen. If this is done politely, it teachs the beginner to strive to improve their skill to reach these high standards.

Just my 2 cents.

[ThomasPowers]

Of course what might the look of high standards in Art Nouveau is not the same look as Art Deco is not the same look as Neo-gothic, is not the same look as....

Just like complaining that someone's pattern welded sceax doesn't have a hamon; comparison's between styles tend not to advance discussion much.