Rich Hale Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 One of the great things about this site is that anyone can and should post in the many forums.Post pics of your work, pose questions, there are just a lot of options. And with that there are a lot of specific places for your posts. And if you happen to post in the incorreect section no worry, one of the folks on here will take care of it for you. The bad thing about this site is that anyone can post here,,Simply put you do not have to have any other ability knowledge or skill other than being able to type in a few lines here and answer any kind of questiion that you may feel the urge to. I do not have a big problem with that as I can sort out which informtion I wish to keep and which to just pass over. I have a pretty fair memory for an older fella and there are those that answer and I do not read. By the same token there are specific names I watch for and rely on as they have shown in past posts they are credible folks that choose to put up answers when they feel they can add something. That keeps me reading the forums. When I answer a question in the forums I try and be specific about wot I feel is a workable answer. I rely on experience I have to suggest an answer. There will always be those with no experience other than wot they have read on here or elswhere that will offer to help anyone asking. And there hopefully will always be those folks that learned in the shop before this internet was a dream. Anyone may learn things from either of these kinds of folks. i worry that new folks will be at the very least misguided. By information they get more or less second hand. But then as they develop shop skills they will soon sort out wot will work for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesteryearforge Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I agree with Rich 110 % Thats the trouble with things like Wikipedia This information age is way to fast and way too inaccurate to be building experience solely based on information that is posted. You have the very real chance of newbies leading newbies thinking all along that they actually know what they are talking about.. But that is the nature of these type forums where there is no shortage of self proclaimed MASTERS , the real challenge is know which which is which. You can feed hungry people almost anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 IForgeIron encourages those with the knowledge to correct any post that puts forth mis-information. This usually self corrects the forums in a couple of posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 the other thing that bothers me is a post asking the same question that has been answered time and time again.. as far as accuracy in answers you gota look at what the person posting answers has posted and figure from there ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob S Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Everything has been said but not everyone has said it. Mo Udall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divermike Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I posted a couple pics last year and got flamed by an individual criticizing my work, I was astonished and taken back. There are so many encouraging people on this site, it was an eye opener. I'm amazed that at 51 years old I could still feel like a little kid being reprimanded. I learned a bitter lesson, ALL forums have jerks, thank God the decent folks have outnumbered the jerks on this site hundreds to few. Like the author of this topic, I know the chaff when I see it, and just leave it be, but we should always try to be encouraging, and very very careful with criticisms. Perhaps we could convince the boss of this site to allow a heading on everyones postings that state whether we are hobbyists or pros, some of the critical comments I have seen appear to come from those that think everyone should be doing high level pro stuff. If you know you are dealing with a less experienced member, maybe the thought process would go differently. Thanks to all for this site! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jawno Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I have found a good indicator of knowledge is howw many posts the person has made. Doesn't always work that way of course but generally someone with over a thousand posts would have left the site if their information was always being corrected. Notice of course by my number of posts that I'm a complete noob at this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 We have considered labels for newbie etc etc up to master. Who is going to decide which category you fit in best? Who is going to look at the work you present for review, which may or may not be done by you, and decide? If you require a business license to be a professional blacksmith, that is just a check to the local government and if the check clears the bank, not skill level,. If you vote someone into the group, it then becomes a clique (sp) or a good ole boys club. If you count post, does "atta boy", "good job". and "I like it" count as posts? I would like to separate the education, skill, and expertise level but what criteria is fair and can be proven? As was mentioned above, those that consistently provide good information will rise to the top of the list anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I do not think that excessive praise and positive encouragement are always a good thing, sometimes something needs to be said about how a piece could be made better. It is sad that some people tale a little constructive criticism so hard, I know it is difficult to convey feelings in such an impersonal form of communication such as typing though. smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 When attempting to correct a person, not only is it hard to show feelings and intention over the net, some poeple read the one thread where facts are "presented hard" and ignore the many other posts or conversations in the chat, where it was tried to be polite and the person could not take a hint and required stronger words. On the other hand I dont want to stop new people from posting, but how can we correct incorrect information with out pointing it out, and the constant offenders posting just to see their names in print from posting gibberish? Some new people have no clue who the real smiths are and who just plays nintendo and posts a lot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I think the ratings system is a very good idea. But I think one should be not able to give themselves a +1. This is a poor idea because someone who was unethical could go and give every one of their posts a +1 and end up with unrealistic rating. I suppose if they really wanted and were computer savvy they could have several accounts from different IP addresses and pump themselves even more but that would be extreme. You could apply titles baised on peoples ratings then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesteryearforge Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 WINDOWS or better yet DOORS You can enter any Door that you are qualified to enter. Now how you Qualify people to be able to enter the doors or not would be a monumental task. Most likely undoable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I do think we should have one area for people that are experienced smiths, not beginners, LIke Sword forum has the pro forum, all members can read, but only the pros can post. Proof is normally a review of the work via web site or word of mouth of current members. A new member of course would need a minimal amount of posts, but the real difference is that it does not have the clutter of the same questions being asked by people to lazy to read what has already been covered. We get a lot of the Q's posted in the general smithing section that have been addressed in the proper area: like blades or welding, but they want a fast answer, and wont spend their own time to find them, rather expecting US to do it for them. also there are issues that do not apply to the casual smith or beginner, that do need real answers for the working smith, with out weeding through the desk jocky's hearsay, Such as the insurance issue I brought up a while ago. It did stay on topic, but until a smith is demoing and selling blades, it does not effect them, so there is no way they can know about it, unless they are a Insurance Agent, or a working smith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It sounds like you would be better off starting your own website dedicated to pro bladesmiths where you could administrate it yourself to eliminate all the members and questions you don't want to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 There are several bladesmith sites out there and at least one that caters to the pro bladesmith. Administration of those sites is up to that site. With blacksmithing, we do not know who or where our next master blacksmith is coming from. It may be the newbie that starts rough and then decides to study the craft, or the fellow that retires and buys an anvil cause he always wanted to try blacksmithing, or the hobby blacksmith that finally takes it to the next level, or ____ insert how the next master blacksmith started here. IForgeIron encourages them all to grow in the craft.WINDOWS or better yet DOORS. You can enter any Door that you are qualified to enter. Now how you Qualify people to be able to enter the doors or not would be a monumental task. Most likely undoable You can build the windows, that is easy. IForgeIron is mostly windows where anyone with a mouse can see most everything on the site. Register as a member and you can see most everything else (images, attachments, some sections such as the chat, etc.) Building a door is also easy but it opens (no pun intended) the need for organization of another section to the site. That is also easy. The real problem is now to choose who comes through the door. They should be a mentor, knowledgeable of which they speak, have skill and expertise in their field, and post on a regular basis. Those with door privileges should be the ones that recommend others for door privileges. All this has been considered before and I will give it due consideration again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southernforge Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Glenn you are doing a fine job, as is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It sounds like you would be better off starting your own website dedicated to pro bladesmiths where you could administrate it yourself to eliminate all the members and questions you don't want to see. I never said that there is a not a need for places for beginners, we all had to start at the beginning. The problem you seem to have missed is trolls attempting to get in the way. there is plenty of information in IFI, I was asking about pros section, not asking to boot the beginners., and maybe I do already have a bladesmith site? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I haven't missed anything. What I see is probably the only person who routinely gets bent out of shape from questions from beginners is you. Do you honestly think that you will change the way every Newbie asks questions Steve? Do you think that every Newbie that comes here is going to scour every sticky before they ask questions? Probably not, so you will probably continue to get irritated and feel that they are trying to take advantage of you and your information. You probably won't change the way it works so maybe you need to change. If you are constantly upset by these questions IGNORE THEM. It's not up to you to police the site and chastise members for not doing prior research. You refer to them as trolls. If I'm not mistaken, a troll is someone who posts something in order to start fights and get a rise out of other members, not someone who asks a question that is legitimate in their mind, but not legitimate in someone else's mind. IF you already have a bladesmith forum why are you still here constantly getting irritated. Do you like getting irritated? In post number 13 you use words like 'clutter', 'lazy', 'desk jocky hearsay'. These words make it sound like you have nothing but utter contempt for anyone who is not a seasoned veteran of the site and is not familiar with all that's been discussed before. I often see people reference how many topics and posts are on IFI. There's a LOT of information here. The info is not always easy to find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Sask Mark, Rather than placing Steve (or anyone else) in a position that they must defend themselves, why not suggest a way to correct the problem. We have divided the site into sections so you can find anvil information under anvils, and knife information under knives, etc. We have put sticky posts containing valuable information for those at the TOP of the page. We have tried "read this first" posts. We have posted a listing the good information URL's (threads). Still, many times the first posts is as follows: "I have not looked on the site, but can some one tell me how to _____". For over 10 years the site had encouraged helping this individual and not to point out the obvious, that they should spend some time reading and searching what has already been posted on the subject. Then there is the individual that spent some time reading and searching and then politely asks for assistance. Guess which one gets the most help. Rare is the individual that actually takes notes, goes to their forge and returns with real time examples of what they accomplished. When they ask for assistance they the thread many times becomes a reference URL or a sticky because of the detail in the discussion that follows. If you have a suggestion as to how to gently guide the newbie (self help fashion) to the information, please let us know. I am certainly willing to give it a go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Glenn, I'm not putting anyone in a position to defend themselves. Steve can do what he feels is appropriate. I personally don't see a problem with people asking ANY question they feel is pertinent. In university, we had an organic chem prof that would answer any question with 'go read a textbook'. Almost half the class failed. The next semester the prof (different prof) was very helpful and went out of his way to put anything in terms that each person needed to understand the information. The class was far more successful. The student reviews of each professor reflected what they thought of each teaching style. I don't think that I'm the only one that is seeing it this way either. I notice that I have a few positive feedback on my posts (I promise that I never gave myself any of these scores). You will always have people looking and posting information in the wrong sections. Sometimes it's accidental, sometimes the subject matter can fit into more than one category, and yes, sometimes it's laziness. There is a moderation team that does a great job on this site in keeping this information segregated and categorized. Just for the record, when someone new to the site has asked information that I know is in a sticky I have suggested they read the sticky and provided the link to the sticky. If they still don't want to read the information, then that's their problem. I don't think that a snappy reply to the effect of 'we already talked about that - go read it yourself' is very constructive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I do get fed up with people that ask the same things over and over again, and do not try it themselves. but continue to troll. yes I know the definition of the term, and it seems that is what is hapening. As for my "policing" that actually is one of my jobs here. I am tring to figure out how to deal with some of these issues. I teach a lot, and have been for years; jujitsu, red cross, electrical apprentices, and smithing. I dont allow students to stay in any of my classes that wont at least try to practice what is taught, its a waste of the rest of the classes time. I am getting upset, so I am in this thread looking for answers, not just to complain, but to learn myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Steve, I'm not trying to downplay your role here. You are highly respected and a wealth of information. However, since you do teach so much, you should also realize that everyone learns differently. With the information age, young people are using completely different ways of gathering information and learning. They instantly have vast amounts of information at their finger tips electronically. Why would information on blacksmithing be any different? Are they being unrealistic trying to learn about something that takes practice? Absolutely! Do they realize it? Probably not! However, unlike the classes that you teach, it is NOT a waste of everyone's time as everyone has the option to try to help or ignore it. I personally think that you are making a problem where one doesn't exist. Think of it this way. If a guest visited your house for the very first time and asked to use your washroom would you tell them to go find it themselves or would you tell them it's the second door on the left down the hall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagg Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 If you do not feel like answering, Steve, don't feel like you have to answer them. Somone else will probably come along and answer their question anyway. I have to admit, this forum was a little hard to navigate when I first got on here. There are SO MANY different forum sections, it can get a little overwealming. No worries! Forgive and forget. Zachary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Linking, while to some cheap, is not entirely a cop-out as a means to answer repeated questions. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Before I started this thread I put a bit of time in just thinking; Wot would this thread say and who would read it anyway? Now that it is on second page it appears that alof of folks not only rfead it but in some manner it gave some a way to vent feelings,,That is cool, I have a hard time answereing the very same questions over and over for alot of years. However, The relatively small number of folks that have asked those and then went on to really do well are a great motivator for me to keep on doing wot I can to assist them. I will admit it is real tough to start all over when a person asks,,"how do I make a knife,,or sord?" And it is not an odd thing for me to ask wot skills they have and if they have done any research. If I can I will likely link them to some help on here and suggest further options like books etc. However. When the same person comes in a few more times and asks the same thing I feel as if I have been disrespected and I will not answer them any more. Period. (I know its a hard line!) And if they come back a second time and say they did not find wot they were looking for i am all for helping in any way I can. I am very proud to be a part of this site and wot it has provided for so many folks over the years. And as suggested above, at times I just choose to not answer a new person in here...A wait and see thing with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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