ciladog Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 The next installment is ready after about 2 ½ hours of forging. I forge the billets in a coal forge but I have done them in my propane forge. I prefer the coal forge because it is hotter and I can work faster but there is no reason that it can’t be done in propane forge if it gets hot enough. Once the billets are finished, I forge the final product in the propane forge. I forge at about 2000+ degrees Fahrenheit - somewhere between light yellow and white just at the point where I see carbon sparks breaking out of the fire and the billet looks wet. Saw chain seems to weld very well at this temperature. However, the color needs to be uniform in the area that you will weld. There should be no dark spot in the weld area. If there are, no amount of wishing is going to make the steel weld. Just put it back in the fire (or propane forge) until it is uniformly the same temperature. Blacksmithing will surely teach you patience. I wish I could figure out how to intersperse photos with text but I haven’t yet so refer to the attached thumbnails. I started with a loose saw chain billet of about 14 cubic inches and ended up with a consolidated billet that is 5 cubic inches (a 2.8:1 ratio). Consider about a 3:1 volume ratio if you want to try this. I know I said earlier in a post that it was about 2:1 but I paid real attention to this project it I was a bit off on my calculations. So into the fire. Check out the pics, they have captions on them that explain what they are. Start slowly and work from one end to the other. Work in both dimensions. The idea here is to make a solid billet that can be worked at a press, power hammer, or at the anvil. If you move too fast, you will no doubt get inclusions that will be hard to get ride of later. I always flux the entire billet and assume that no matter what I’m doing it is welding something at this point and at the very least, it keeps oxidation to a minimum. Until the billet is completely consolidated, I work at welding heat. You will see from the pics that I work from one end to the other. It took 6 heats with hammer and anvil to make the billet ridged before I took it to the power hammer. But it could have been worked in a press or on the anvil. So for now that’s it. I will work on the other billet and get it ready to weld to the first in a day or so and then weld them together. That is when I will post more info on this project. I will however answer questions. But don’t wait for me; get that old saw chain and start playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Great description I am going to have to get some used chains. I once did a timing chain it was a lot of fun I will do more when I get a chance nice job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted August 6, 2011 Author Share Posted August 6, 2011 If you want to try saw chain welding and you need a source of chain, contact your local tree service companies or loggers if you are in those parts of the country. They go through a lot of chain each year. A few years back, I was having some trees taken down and I got into a conversation with the owner about what he does with his used chain. He said they send it to the scrap yard along with chipper blades, and saw bars but they don’t get much money for it. I made a deal with him. If he would give me the used chain (and I offered to pay for it) I would make him a knife from his own chain. So I went to his yard and picked up the chain and he gave me some saw bars also. I offered to pay but he wouldn’t take any money. I made him the knife. It was only the second knife I ever made but a deal was a deal. Now each year he gives me around 40 pounds of chain and 3 or 4 bars for free. It’s a great deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Wonderful,systematic work,ciladog,neat stuff!(Forging has taught me some patience,but nowhere near that much!). I'm not a knifemaker,either,but did use some chain and bars in a laminate experiments. The bars seem like some TOUGH steel.I've only used Stihl brand,solid(yellow label),as opposed to riveted kind,but they welded to other stuff quite well(even to leaf-spring),making a very dark streak in the laminate. Anyway,great work,congradulations on getting such a degree of control over the medium!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I will be talking to my local tree people this week. This is too interesting not to try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 Thanks Jake. I have tried to find out what kind of steel saw bars are made from but have not had much luck with the manufacturers. I know that some are O1 but the makers just say it’s a proprietary alloy. They say the same thing about the chain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Those guys,i tell ya-some people's kids! (As if any self-respecting industrial spy can't have that stuff analysed). I'd imagine that the alloys differ between brands(after MANY years of sharpening chain/filing bars i still can't QUITE tell,if some last longer or what,but i'm in extremely abrasive conditions all the time). Chain must have 3 different alloys,eh?The cutters must get their qualities by means of micro-alloying elements,as they're not heat-treated that hard. Do you always put it together,initially,side by side,or have you ever done it where the sides of chain face out?Makes an attractive spotted pattern,where the rivets are,and can be manipulated by forging to further deform those spots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Generally the bars that are solid are quite good steel though whatever the alloy. Tough and hard both. This is especially true of the larger sized bars which are subject to extreme stresses. Most knife makers have been happy with such steel but as far as HT you'd have to do a bit of testing so that you'd have a pretty good chance of quality results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheftjcook Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Great stuff, loving the step by step photos!!! Really nice work!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 This is a really nice thread to follow. Keep the posts coming. I'm learning alot reading this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 Jake, I have thought about setting up the billet in different orientations. However, you must realize that there is so much space that must be forged out of the billet that what you think you will get is not what you end up with. XXXXXXXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXX XXX XXX You still must forge in two dimensions so I don’t see much difference in how you make up the initial billet. But I will try it on the next attempt. For now I still have to forge the other half of this project and then forge the billets together. I’m open to trying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Ciladog,you're right in everything you say,the billet must be worked in all directions,but while it's being compacted,to the density of a solid,it's parts remain relatively intact,they're just getting brought closer together. If,at the end of that stage,when everything is a solid,you have the side of the chain facing out the largest face of billet,you wil still be able to see the outline of pins... It's possible that one might structure the initial billet a little flatter to begin with,to prepare for it.And it would then be a tad smaller,to still allow the scale+flux to escape,but it's possible. To tell the truth,the time that it worked best for me was with a wide timing chain(out of a Cat grader engine),there it was a logical choice to lay it on it's side,a couple of rows wide.Later,i just did the saw chain the same way,thinking of it also the same way,as a stack of flat parts other than the rivets. I've brought this up for the heck of it ONLY,please don't let this derail your wonderful experiment,just do it the way it works for you!I'm almost sorry that i had to piope up here.(The timing chain did have an impressive pattern-very contrasting,had that funky organic-reptilian effect to it.Saw-chain was slightly less so,because of the third color making it busier.And these were my brief,inconclusive,scattered experiments only). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Ciladog,i really do feel stupid for interjecting here.I've looked high and low,and only found a photo of YET another chain job that i did,this one a snowmachine drive-chain.That photo kinda shows what i meant about the spots,though...,and i'll shut up and fade out now.Sorry for the interruption.(BTW,it's not my polish/finish/etch...And i never ever even do PW...It was all a manic episode...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 thanks for doing this for us. your description is very clear. Can't wait for the next installment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windancer Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Ciladog this is a great thread! Thanks for taking the time for photos and explanations Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted August 15, 2011 Author Share Posted August 15, 2011 I have forged the second billet the same way I forged the first. I folded each billet a third time and got their size approximately the same so I can weld them together. I’m keeping the orientation the same but at this point you can change it and get different patterns. I have tack welded them together for welding and like before; I will fold to get rid of the welds. That is for tomorrow if all goes a planned. There are so many skill levels on IFI that it occurs to me while forging that lots of things never get said to the newbie’s and some of the oldie’s. When I got started in blacksmithing, I treated my coal like it was a rare commodity that I had to preserve. I would build shallow fires and wait and wait for the metal to get hot. I soon learned that this was a pediment to my blacksmithing. If you use a coal forge, then you need lots of coal or coke and you can’t get a job done unless you are willing to us it. I used about 35 lbs of coal for each billet. So I used almost 70 lbs of coal to forge weld these two billets. And I will probable use another 20-30 lbs welding the two billets together. Forge welding uses a lot of coal! You need to have enough coke burning under your metal so that all the oxygen is consumed before it gets to the metal. You need to keep a good air flow under your metal by using your poker to break up the coke. If you think you are going to make this saw chain stuff with 5 or 10 lbs of coal, it not going to happen. When you are finished forging the billets and they are still red hot, flux them. Don’t waist the heat. The flux will harden and when you go to weld them together, they will be ready. Tomorrow I will weld the billets together and we will see what I end up with to make something out of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted August 16, 2011 Author Share Posted August 16, 2011 So today I welded the two billets together. Check out the pictures. Now I have about 7 ½ cubic inches of solid billet to make something out of. It is about 1 1/8 X 1 1/8 X5 ½ inches. So what should I make? Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Will this material hold an edge? It would make pretty insect or bird wings. A really cool looking pair of etched tongs could be in that billet too. Sky is the limit so to speak... Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatboy Rider Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 thanks for a very clear tutorial Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Well I've made a pattern welded pizza cutter a time or two. How about a nasal for a spangen helm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted August 16, 2011 Author Share Posted August 16, 2011 Will this material hold an edge? It would make pretty insect or bird wings. A really cool looking pair of etched tongs could be in that billet too. Sky is the limit so to speak... Phil Phil, I haven't forged an insect or bird yet so I'm not about to try on this billet. I have about 7 hours into it and I don't think I want to experiment with it. And I don't think I want a pair of pattern welded tongs. But thanks for the suggestions. Well I've made a pattern welded pizza cutter a time or two. How about a nasal for a spangen helm? Thomas, a pizza cutter is a cool idea but this billet is a bit large for a pizza cutter and since I don't entertain much, it would just sit in the drawer. I haven't tried forging a helmet yet so that will have to wait for a future time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeman Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 How about taking a slice and making matching belt buckle, cufflinks and a tie clip? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 How about an axe? Or a kitchen cleaver? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 A pizza cutter doesn't need to be one of the round bladed roller thingies, it can be a plain blade. Our favorite local eaterie now closed, <sigh> made terrific pizza and his pizza cutter was a shortened machete. A curved edge so it rocks like an Ulu is pretty common and what I'd make were I to be making one. And last but not least, it'll look great hanging on the wall. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike418 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Wow, the hammer and anvil look AWESOME! thanks for the how to pics, ive been wanting to try some chain damascus and these were very helpful. I will let you know how it turns out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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